Faith, hope, and charity. Many have heard these three words, but why are they so often used together? And what is it about having faith, hope, and charity that is so powerful? As one of his last lessons to us, Moroni beautifully answers these questions and teaches us how vital these three little words are to our salvation. So grab your scriptures, and let’s dig into Moroni 7–9 to study one of Moroni’s last lessons for us in the latter days.
Segment 1:
Quote: "From the Book of Mormon we learn how disciples of Christ live in times of war" (President Ezra Taft Benson, "The Book of Mormon—Keystone of Our Religion," October 1986 general conference).
Quote: "War has a frightening ability to numb our Christian sensitivities” (Elder Robert C. Oaks, "Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled—A Message of Peace for Latter-day Saints in Military Service," 2005).
“And no one knoweth the end of the war” (Mormon 8:8).
20 For behold, at that day shall he arage in the bhearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good (2 Nephi 28:20).
What word is repeated twice in these verses?
3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the achurch, that are the bpeaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient chope by which ye can enter into the drest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven.
4 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable awalk with the children of men (Moroni 7:3–4).
- peaceable followers of Christ
- peaceable walk with children of men
- rest of the Lord
- rest with him in heaven
- Cross reference rest with D&C 84:24
- 24 But they ahardened their hearts and could not endure his bpresence; therefore, the Lord in his cwrath, for his danger was kindled against them, swore that they should not eenter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.
Segment 2:
"Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get" (Forest Gump (Tom Hanks), "
What metaphor for life does Moroni use?
11 For behold, a bitter afountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he bfollow Christ he cannot be a cservant of the devil (Moroni 7:11).
12 Wherefore, all things which are agood cometh of God; and that which is bevil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to csin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do agood continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and benticeth to do cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is dinspired of God (Moroni 7:12–13).
What does Moroni instruct us to do?
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to ajudge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the aSpirit of Christ is given to every bman, that he may cknow good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God (Moroni 7:15–16).
Spirit of Christ = Light of Christ
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the alight by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same bjudgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the alight of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a bchild of Christ (Moroni 7:18–19).
Elder Bednar's video "Patterns of Light: The Light of Christ"
President Nelson's October 2020 general conference talk "Let God Prevail"
Segment 3:
How do we lay hold of every good thing?
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the alight of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a bchild of Christ (Moroni 7:19).
22 For behold, God aknowing all things, being from beverlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent cangels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing (Moroni 7:22).
28 For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will acleave unto every good thing; wherefore he badvocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens (Moroni 7:28).
Segment 4:
45 And acharity suffereth long, and is bkind, and cenvieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily dprovoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail (Moroni 7:45–46).
What is the connection between hope and faith?
42 Wherefore, if a man have afaith he bmust needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.
43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be ameek, and lowly of heart (Moroni 7:42–43).
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, apray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true bfollowers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall cbe like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be dpurified even as he is pure. Amen (Moroni 7:48).
Segment 5:
2 My beloved son, Moroni, I rejoice exceedingly that your Lord Jesus Christ hath been mindful of you, and hath called you to his ministry, and to his holy work.
3 I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite agoodness and bgrace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end (Moroni 2:2–3).
Little children and baptism:
8 aListen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the bwhole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little cchildren are dwhole, for they are not capable of committing esin; wherefore the curse of fAdam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of gcircumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn amockery before God, that ye should baptize little children (Moroni 8:8–9).
- Cross reference with D&C 29:46–47:
- 46 But behold, I say unto you, that little achildren are bredeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;
- 47 Wherefore, they cannot asin, for power is not given unto Satan to btempt little children, until they cbegin to become daccountable before me; (D&C 46–47).
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are aaccountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little bchildren, and they shall all be saved with their little children (Moroni 8:10).
- Cross reference D&C 68:25
- 25 And again, inasmuch as aparents have children in Zion, or in any of her bstakes which are organized, that cteach them not to understand the ddoctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eeight years old, the fsin be upon the heads of the parents (D&C 68:25).
More on the age eight and baptism:
11 And ye shall acircumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a btoken of the ccovenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is aeight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bbought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed (Genesis 17:11–12).
Joseph Smith Translation:
11 And I will establish a covenant of circumcision with thee, and it shall be my covenant between me and thee, and thy seed after thee, in their generations; that thou mayest know forever that children are not accountable before me until they are eight years old.
12 And thou shalt observe to keep all my covenants wherein I covenanted with thy fathers; and thou shalt keep the commandments which I have given thee with mine own mouth, and I will be a God unto thee and thy seed after thee (JST Genesis 17:11–12).
Baptism has always been apart of the gospel.
Adam was baptized:
64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was acaught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the bwater, and was brought forth out of the water.
65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was aborn of the Spirit, and became quickened in the binner man.
66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with afire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the brecord of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever; (Moses 6:64–66).
Enoch was commanded to baptize:
10 And the Lord said unto me: Go to this people, and say unto them—aRepent, lest I come out and smite them with a curse, and they die.
11 And he gave unto me a commandment that I should abaptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, which is full of bgrace and truth, and of the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and the Son (Moses 7:10–11).
12 But little achildren are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a brespecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism! (Moroni 8:12).
17 And I am filled with acharity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and bpartakers of salvation (Moroni 8:17).
26 And the remission of sins bringeth ameekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the bHoly Ghost, which cComforter dfilleth with hope and perfect elove, which love endureth by fdiligence unto gprayer, until the end shall come, when all the hsaints shall dwell with God (Moroni 8:26).
Segment 6:
Mormon describes his day in a letter to Moroni
8 And the husbands and fathers of those women and children they have slain; and they feed the women upon the aflesh of their husbands, and the children upon the flesh of their fathers; and no water, save a little, do they give unto them (Moroni 9:8).
18 O the depravity of my people! They are without aorder and without mercy. Behold, I am but a man, and I have but the bstrength of a man, and I cannot any longer enforce my commands (Moroni 9:18).
12 (And only a few years have passed away, and they were a civil and a delightsome people) (Moroni 9:12).
Mormon's advice to his son Moroni:
25 My son, be faithful in Christ; and may not the things which I have written grieve thee, to weigh thee down unto adeath; but may Christ lift thee up, and may his sufferings and death, and the showing his body unto our fathers, and his mercy and blong-suffering, and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, rest in your cmind forever (Moroni 9:25).
0:00:00 Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, I have a story to tell you. When I was first hired to teach seminary, I took the place of the most beloved teacher of all time. She truly was the Mary Poppins, "The Sound of Music," Maria. She really is the Julie Andrews of seminary teaching and she even could play the guitar. So she would make up songs and she would write scriptures to music so the kids loved her so much and mid-year, she ended up quitting and then they hired me to come in and take her place and I'm not being dramatic when I say the kids hated me. I even had a few notes slipped under my office door. They would slough my class. It was tough go. They did not want a replacement and they had no problem letting me know that.
0:00:41 TH: So I can remember one day, it was a little bit... Maybe it was too dramatic, I don't know but it was real for me and the seminary building had shutdown. All the teachers had gone home and I was alone in the building and I went in my classroom, I turned on church music and I laid on the floor in the front of my classroom and just sobbed. Cried my eyes out, praying out loud to Heavenly Father, saying "What have I done?" I've ruined my life, I graduated from college, had this career for a couple of years and then through a weird set of circumstances and events, I became a seminary teacher and I just thought "Heavenly Father, what have I done?"
0:01:11 TH: So the next day I decided I was gonna confide in one of the seminary teachers that I worked with. I went to one of the teachers and I said "Okay, here's the deal, these kids hate me. What am I gonna do to win these kids over? I have no idea how to make things right." So he looks at me and this is what he did. He left my office, came back with his scriptures in his hands and the only thing he did was open to Moroni chapter 7 and he read two verses to me and I was furious.
0:01:41 TH: Because I'm like "Who do you think you are reading scripture to a seminary teacher?" I'm not gonna tell you what those verses are because I'm gonna finish this story later in today's episode. How's that for a good cliffhanger? And I'm also gonna talk to you about why I'm so grateful that Moroni included the words of his Father, Mormon and Moroni chapter 7 through 9, because those two verses changed my life forever.
0:02:02 TH: Welcome to the Sunday On Monday study group friends, a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the come follow me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelec Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, here's what you need to know about it. It's an hour long so you can just sit and listen to it all the way through and enjoy the stories and all the segments and I say segments because here's my favorite thing about this podcast; it's broken up into six segments and each segment is about 10 to 12 minutes long. So you can just study your scriptures for 10 to 12 minutes a day and then get on with everything else you have to do and come back the next day and listen to some more.
0:02:35 TH: And at the end of each segment, you're gonna hear some music play so that's how you know the segment is over and what I like is that that music is what is listened to by some of my very young listeners who I found out about. These cute girls who are eight and 10, listening. Hi Hope, hi Grace, they're listening to us in Colorado so hi sweet girls, listen for the music and I'm so glad you're enjoying our podcast.
0:02:57 TH: Another awesome thing about our study group. Okay, this is probably the most awesome thing is that each week I get to invite two friends to come and discuss the scriptures with me and today I am so excited because it's been a long time coming and the Spirit has worked on getting these friends together for this specific episode. My friends Shar Howell and Tami Weaver. Hi guys.
0:03:19 Sharmaine Howell: Hey Tammy.
0:03:21 Tami Weaver: Hi.
0:03:21 TH: How do we know each other? Let's tell our story.
0:03:24 TW: Well, we moved in the same time into the neighborhood.
0:03:28 TH: We did.
0:03:30 TW: The first day I met you, I was like, there's my new best friend. I knew it. But I think the reason that we connected was you married Jim and we had these two daughters and I had kids the same age, you were jumping into motherhood and I was covered in motherhood.
0:03:49 TH: It was truly Heavenly Father was like "Okay, I'm gonna move Tami and her entire family to Utah 'cause Tammy Hall needs you.
0:03:57 TW: That was it.
0:03:58 TH: I can't believe God would move a whole family just for me.
0:04:02 SH: Oh! I love that.
0:04:02 TH: And then Shar moves in so the three of us are neighbors.
0:04:06 SH: I met Tami Weaver and then I met another Tammy, that's you and I was like "Wow! There's two Tammys on this street. How crazy." And it was not long after that we started doing Bible study, scripture study at my house together and that was the best of the times.
0:04:21 TH: Good couple of years. We've all been neighbors and friends and then Shar moves, you jerk.
0:04:27 SH: I know.
0:04:28 TH: I'm just kidding, we miss you.
0:04:30 SH: Yeah, it's been too long but now we can see each other. It's so great.
0:04:32 TH: And you're in Minnesota.
0:04:33 SH: Minnesota, yep. Freezing our butts off and loving life.
0:04:38 TH: It's so cold there. Well, if you wanna know more about my friends, you can read their bios and see fun pictures of them, possibly their families, you can go to our show notes, which is at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday to check those out. So Tam, I think my favorite text of all time, my pre-episode text was from you. You said, "I'm already crying." I love it. I was like "I'm already crying too." So friends, grab your scriptures, let's dig in.
0:05:09 TH: In a conference address back in 1986, President Ezra Taft Benson said this about the book of Mormon. "From the book of Mormon, we learn how disciples of Christ live in times of war." and now I have another quote for you. In 2005, Elder Robert C. Oaks of the presidency of the 70, who is a retired general, he spoke at a meeting and this is what he said "War has a frightening ability to numb our Christian sensitivities." and then Moroni, when he records these haunting words shortly after his father's death, he says in Mormon chapter eight verse eight "And no one knoweth the end of the war."
0:05:50 TH: And when I read these, I thought, you know, I'm not really in a hand-to-hand combat. I'm not actually going to a war and then the spirit very clearly taught me, yeah, you're in one right now and so I wanna ask you ladies, how has 2020 been like a war or has it been like a war for you?
0:06:07 TW: Well, it's a struggle and a fight just to have enough toilet paper and sanitizing wipes but also a spiritual struggle not having the temple open, not having church. I kind of miss people but there's been a lot of blessings too in 2020 like knowing and loving our families and gathering them tight and realizing what's important.
0:06:35 SH: I totally agree with all of that Tam and for me personally, 2020 has been a little bit of a war with all the world and the pandemic and everything and then we throw in there, our five kids telling them that we're moving halfway across the country, it's a daily battle against my kids right now of "Hey, we're moving, you're gonna lose all your family, all your friends and the pandemic and you're gonna not meet anybody for a long time, 'cause you're gonna be doing school at home with me." so I'm the General and this is a war here in our house every day.
0:07:11 TH: You are the general. I love how you just put that. Yes. Okay so for those of you generals out there who are trying to manage this war, you kind of think "Please let 2021 be better, let there be some respite." but it might not come for a while so this war is going to continue and I thought of the scripture in second Nephi chapter 28 verse 20, where it talks about one of Satan's tactics is that he will wage in the hearts of the children of men and I just see this rage everywhere and just this anger and so yeah, it is a time of war.
0:07:44 TH: And so what I thought was interesting is that Moroni chapter 7 probably contains some of the greatest military ops, which I learned was called the military option plan so it's some of the greatest military ops for the war that we're in right now and like Moroni said "No man knoweth the end of the war." So let's read what it is that he thinks is going to help us because this is for us right now and he saw our day and this is the plan that he thinks is gonna benefit us the most right now.
0:08:10 TH: In Moroni chapter 7, let's read verses three and four. So Tami, will you read those for us?
0:08:17 TW: "Wherefore I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which you can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth, until ye shall rest with Him in heaven and now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men."
0:08:42 TH: Look back in verse three and four, there's a word that's repeated twice, which is quite the opposite of the world we're in right now. What word is that?
0:08:51 SH: Is it peaceable?
0:08:51 TH: Yeah, whenever I have read verse 3 and I've read that peaceable followers of Christ. I've thought, oh yeah, I am. I'm a peaceable follower of Christ. I love Jesus, he's peace, I'm peace. But then I read it in context of the war we're living in and I thought, wait a minute, this is different now, like to be a peaceable follower of Christ and to peaceably walk with the children of men. Tell me how this can help us in the war that we're living in right now.
0:09:17 SH: I mean, something that I try to remind myself of every day and this is just on a family level and not so much the whole world but that anger never works and peace and love will always work better. It's sometimes hard in the situation to be not angry or not contentious or trying to push a certain point or reason and whatever it is but peace will always work better. I know that sounds really generic but every time with my kids, if I'm gonna yell at them, it's not gonna work.
0:09:50 TH: When you told your kids that you guys were moving, that was hard and so how did being a peaceable follower of Christ? How did it help you navigate the way you responded to your kids? 'Cause they were mad.
0:10:03 SH: Yeah, that's totally right. We have had a lot of conversations where they're saying their opinion and they're saying their point of view and they're angry and they're frustrated and they're crying and we're all taking our days where we each take a turn crying, you know, this is hard. Whatever it is, it's hard and the thing that I found that worked the most was listening and I didn't have to resolve it, I didn't have to bring an answer to the table. I didn't have to solve everything, I just had to listen to them and that kind of goes for all of the things we're dealing with even in the world, we all have different opinions so we need to listen to each other.
0:10:40 TH: We just wanna be heard. That's a great example Shar. Thank you. Tam, what about you? What are your thoughts?
0:10:46 TW: Well, the other word that's mentioned in that verse in verse 3 a few times is rest and rest of the Lord and rest with Him in heaven and I think sometimes there's so much chaos and so much yuck in the world that the idea of resting with the Savior and just that relief when you're resting, I just can imagine the Savior wrapping his arms around us and you've done it. Let's rest.
0:11:16 TH: Tami, I'm so glad you brought that word 'rest' up because I wanted us to also mark that word so in verse 3, where it says 'rest' twice, it's a dual meaning word in this verse and so you brought up the idea of being able to rest, which I love, because who isn't tired of this? We just want to rest of this bleh and the other meaning of the word 'rest' in here is found in section 84 verse 24, let's go there quickly to find out the other meaning of the word 'rest'. Shar, will you read that for us?
0:11:47 SH: "But they harden their hearts and could not enter His presence, therefore the Lord in His wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fullness of His glory."
0:12:02 TH: Thank you and so that word 'rest' also means the fullness of His glory and so if we can be peaceable followers of Christ and maybe just rest and listen and do all of these things, that it will afford us to enter into his glory and have the fullness of it to become celestial kingdom candidates or heirs of the celestial kingdom. So thank you, thank you for sharing that.
0:12:25 TH: One of the questions I did ask myself as I read this was, how peaceable am I and how peaceable have I been this year and how peaceable am I gonna be in 2021? And this is a great invitation from Moroni for all of us to really think about being a peaceable follower of Christ and I love the idea of just walking peaceably with the children of men and that's gonna be my goal this year so being a peaceable follower of Christ is required and it is essential to being able to do this next thing and we're gonna talk about that in the next segment.
Segment 2
0:12:57 TH: So Forrest Gump said "Life is like a box of chocolates." Right? And I asked you guys to come up with your own life is like... So I'm so excited to hear what you have to say. Go for it. Life is like what?
0:13:09 TW: Life is like a pickleball game. Some days...
0:13:12 SH: It would be.
0:13:14 TW: It is, you're killing it and you show up, you're playing amazing and you've got this and then you go play the next day and you're missing easy shots and you're wondering if you even know how to play.
0:13:27 TH: Perfect example and you're Pickleball queen. So I love your analogy. What do you got Shar?
0:13:33 SH: For me, life is like cheese. For sure, it's either... As you age, you either get better with age or you get moldy.
0:13:48 TW: Tammy loves her cheese.
0:13:48 TH: I do. I love that analogy.
0:13:52 SH: I don't wanna be the moldy cheese, I wanna get better with age. Right?
0:13:54 TH: Yes. Yes, that's perfect Shar. That's a good one. I thought of because we just bought these and then they're in our pantry, life is like the Costco-size thing of mixed nuts and you start eating them and you're like "Oh, I got a cashew, it's a great day." And then eat one of those weird nuts, you're like "Ugh, this is disgusting."
0:14:12 TW: What was that?
0:14:13 TH: Yeah, how did that end up in my hand so you gotta pick it out and decide which ones you're gonna have and so I was like, yeah, some days are cashews and some days are walnuts. Sorry, people who love walnuts, I don't so anyway and then if you get the unsalted kind accidentally, no thanks. I'll take it back and get the right kind of nuts.
0:14:31 TH: Anyway, all of these metaphors. Okay, now the reason why I asked you to give these metaphors for life is because in Moroni chapter 7, we have a great metaphor and one of the things we have to know about this is that metaphors in scripture is a very effective way of teaching and it's used by ancient prophets as well as Christ because what they do is they compare something human with something in nature 'cause it's so easy to understand. So in Moroni chapter 7, verse 11, tell me what the metaphor is in that verse.
0:15:01 TW: A bitter fountain and good water... A good fountain. Is that what you're talking about?
0:15:04 TH: Yeah, he's giving us this metaphor, a bitter fountain can't bring forth good water and a good fountain can't bring forth bitter water. So I'm gonna read verses 12 and 13 and then I want you both to tell me what's the point of this bitter fountain, good fountain metaphor.
0:15:19 TH: "Wherefore all things which are good cometh of God and that which is evil cometh of the devil, for the devil is an enemy to God and fighteth against Him continually and inviteth and enticeth to sin and to do that which is evil continually. But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually, wherefore everything which inviteth and enticeth to do good and to love God and to serve Him is inspired of God." How would you sum that up in regular language?
0:15:48 TW: Well, evil comes from the devil and good comes from God.
0:15:51 TH: Very good and he's setting this up to help us learn something really powerful in Verse 15 so we're gonna read verse 15 because he's telling us we can do something if we understand that good comes from God and bad comes from Satan. So Shar, will you please read Verse 15?
0:16:09 SH: "For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge that you may know good from evil and the way to judge is as plain that you may know with a perfect knowledge as the daylight is from the dark night."
0:16:21 TH: Now, wait, what did Verse 15 tell us we get to do?
0:16:24 SH: We get to judge.
0:16:24 TH: We're not supposed to judge.
0:16:28 TW: We're not supposed to judge.
0:16:28 TH: Yes, we get to charge. Tell us, go ahead Shar.
0:16:31 SH: I think that's awesome. I love that it says that we can know with a perfect knowledge and we can judge good from evil as daylight is from dark night, just so it is so polar, it is dark and light and there's nothing in between it.
0:16:48 TH: Yes. You're absolutely right. So we get to judge. Now, we don't get to judge people, we're not judging them to a kingdom or that they're awful people but we are entitled and we are encouraged to judge good from evil. This is an important lesson to teach little kids from the moment they can understand being afraid of the dark and loving the light and hating the bad and loving the good, they're able to choose the good and then to teach them why they're able to choose the good is found in verse 16. What's the one thing everyone's given to choose good?
0:17:17 TW: The Spirit of Christ.
0:17:19 TH: Yeah, let's highlight that, mark that. The spirit of Christ and I like how it's said "is given to every man that he may know good from evil." So I'm curious to know, have either of you ever had to do that? To judge light from dark, good from evil.
0:17:34 TH: Mine was when I was dating for sure, because when I was dating Jim, it was light, there was no doubt in my mind and I had dated so many men, so many men and I had said yes to every day and some were not... That was not a good choice, some of those dates and the spirit was like "Yeah, I probably shouldn't go out with this person." and not judging the person, just judging that that wasn't the right light for me and that wasn't the right decision for me and when I got engaged to Jim, I didn't even pray about it and I remember right before I was gonna marry him, I thought, I didn't even pray about this. I probably should pray and I got on my knees, I'm like "Heavenly father, should I marry? Is this light?" and the Spirit's like "Give me a break." It's totally like, you know it, you feel it, compared to everything you've ever done, all the dates in your 35 years, it is light.
0:18:17 TH: And I remember having this conversation with my oldest daughter who's in the dating scene right now and she said "Mom, do I have to say yes to every boy that asks me out?" And I was like "No, you only have to say yes to light, the light that is right for you and let that spirit of Christ, let that light of Christ guide you as you make those decisions." In fact, Spirit of Christ and light of Christ is synonymous, it's the same thing and we learn that in verses 18 and 19 and let's go there and read these verses. Moroni chapter seven, verses 18 and 19 and Tami, will you read that for us?
0:18:50 TW: And now my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ? See that ye do not judge wrongfully, for with that same judgment which ye judge, you shall also be judged. Wherefore I beseech of you, brethren, that you should search diligently in the light of Christ, that ye may know good from evil and if you will lay hold upon every good thing and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
0:19:20 TH: There it is, the light of Christ and I wanna play this sound bite by Elder Bednar and as you listen to it, it's is one minute long so it's worth a minute and I just want you to share some of your thoughts and things that you were thinking about, the light of Christ in all of us.
0:19:32 Elder Bednar: The light of Christ is what many people would call a conscience but it's more of a psychological effect that takes place within people. Someone can be riding on a bus and see someone in distress and feel a compassion and a desire to assist and serve this person. Many people would say "No. That's just natural behavior." but it's more, it is the influence of God that pulls us, that influences us to be good and to do good.
0:20:16 EB: Every person, ever born in history, now in the future, is influenced by the light of Christ for goodness, as we yield to that influence to do good and become good and the light of Christ increases within us. As we disobey, light is decreased and can ultimately be diminished.
0:20:39 TH: That's not a great sound bite from him about that.
0:20:43 TW: Mm-hmm. That's good.
0:20:44 TH: What stood out to you?
0:20:46 TW: Well, I think as women in our families and in our neighborhoods and with our friends, we're naturally nurtures but I think that we also have this light of Christ, that's this nurturing ability is the light of Christ and it's a beautiful thing to see it in people's faces and in the people around us.
0:21:10 SH: I liked at the end when he said "You can either increase in the light or decrease in... " Make choices that will take you away from it. He kind of said something like that and it makes me think a little bit about President Nelson's October conference talk where you said "Let God prevail." "Will you let God prevail?" Because either you're letting God prevail or you're letting Satan prevail.
0:21:35 TH: Excellent, thank you both of you for those thoughts. It is a beautiful idea of this light of Christ and I always think of it when I look at people and I'm in the world and you see all of this stuff on TV and the anger and the hatred and I think, they have the light of Christ every human being has it and that gives me hope in humanity. So what's interesting to me is in verse 19, where it says that you should search diligently in the light of Christ. Now that stood out to me. Did you guys mark that?
0:22:04 SH: Mm-hmm.
0:22:06 TH: Why did you mark it?
0:22:07 SH: I don't know. I just felt like you have to find answers in the light, you can't search for an answer in a dark room so if you're looking for answers and you're trying to find or seek something, you have to be in the light to find it.
0:22:24 TH: Oh my gosh! That's perfect. Because I've had that marked and I've been thinking about it and you summed it up perfectly in the light of Christ. So it's important for us to understand what that means because it's gonna help us make the judgment call to do this next thing, which we're gonna talk about in the next segment.
Segment 3
0:22:42 TH: Now what's interesting to me is in Moroni chapter 7, verse 19 and 20. We're gonna read those and at the very end of verse 19, Shar will you go back, and after it says, search diligently in the light of Christ, that you may know evil, then read the word starting with and.
0:22:58 SH: And if you will lay hold upon every good thing and condemn it not, you certainly will be a child of Christ.
0:23:06 TH: That right there, every good thing, what is he talking about? What do you think the good things are that he's talking about there?
0:23:13 SH: Well, I think that God is every good thing, right? We just learned that in these last scriptures, that all good things come from God, that evil is from Satan and all the good is from Heavenly Father.
0:23:25 TH: Absolutely and so then I like how in verse 20, the question is asked "And now my brethren, how is it possible that you can lay hold upon every good thing?" I Like he was like "Well, how are we gonna do this? Because it might be really hard to do." And so in Moroni chapter 7, at the very end of it, verse 22 and then verse 25 and 28, I'm gonna read those and as I read these verses, I want you to look for what the answer is, what is He telling us, will help us lay hold upon every good thing, okay?
0:23:56 TH: So at the very end of verse 22, it's gonna say and in Christ, there should come every good thing, then verse 25 says, wherefore by the ministering of angels and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ and thus, by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing and thus it was until the coming of Christ and verse 28, for He have answered the ends of the law and He claimeth of all those who have faith in him and they who have faith in Him will cleave unto every good thing, wherefore he advocated the cause of the children of men and He dwelleth eternally in the heavens. What did you mark? What's his answer?
0:24:34 TW: Have faith.
0:24:41 SH: By faith.
0:24:42 TH: So now here comes the real application and my question is, alright then, going back to, He says "How is it possible that you can lay hold upon every good thing?" I wanna know when life hits you, smack dead really hard and your hit was something that shakes your faith, how do you lay hold upon every good thing then?
0:25:03 TH: So Tami has a beautiful story and I've asked her to share it and I'm already crying. [chuckle] 'Cause I wanna know how you... How did you manage to lay hold upon every good thing during the most horrific moment of your life? So tell your story.
0:25:18 TW: Okay. So we had five kids. Life is perfect. We moved to Utah, we have this great neighborhood, great friends and we decided that we wanted to take our family to Disney Land and watch the Broadway show Wicked and my youngest was two years and three months old and we had a four-year-old and we asked grandma to baby sit those two because we knew that we couldn't take them to the Broadway show so we were gonna be gone about five days and we dropped those little ones off at grandma's and had this great time with our older kids were at Disney Land, we go to the show, it was a great time and on Sunday morning, we got a call from grandma and grandpa that our two-year-old had passed away in the night.
0:26:18 TW: She had been a little bit sick with a cold and some croup-like symptoms and it masked this... A respiratory virus that attacked her lungs, the amount of people that stepped up to help us was incredible, we drove from Utah to California and we actually left our car there and flew back and my husband had a cousin and an aunt that took care of the car and drove it to us and another cousin got the air flight for us and met us in Salt Lake on a private plane to fly us into Idol Falls. Everybody just comes to your rescue but I think the hardest part was actually helping the kids, the older kids process through and we're trying to keep everybody from freaking out and we had so many tender mercies.
0:27:20 TW: We got on the airplane and there was no way, timing-wise, that we should have made that flight. We're trying to check luggage and run fast and go through security and then we get there and they're like, you guys are the last ones on the flight, there's no seats together and all of a sudden, a magic agent find seats together, 'cause I'm like "There's no way I'm gonna put my kids sitting separately on this flight." and anyway, we finally got back to where the family was and we got to see our daughter, I was in shock. I didn't believe that what was happening was happening. It took me a long time to process that this was real, that she had died.
0:28:07 TW: Your grandparents and your parents pass away before your children. No mother should have to bury their child and it happened in January and so it was cold and so we had this amazing, beautiful service and then we had to walk away and leave her in the ground and I will say that your faith does get you through. I can't describe it any other way. It was almost like my whole life had prepared me for this moment. My life of living the commandments and building my faith and the light of Christ in my life prepared me for this moment. It wasn't like at that time, this is so horrible, so glad I have faith. It was kind of a disconnect but it was also because of those things, I was able to get through.
0:29:11 TW: When we talk about charity, I will say that the people around me lifted me up, you were there with me every minute of all the hard stuff and heavily father put you and all these wonderful people in my path to help me through that and, yes, that's my faith but it's also charity and the light of Christ that the people around me have and I would like to say that it was actually a beautiful experience and it was hard and it wasn't fine that I wouldn't wanna ever do it again but I'm fully invested in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I cannot wait for that reunion when we get to have our daughter back as part of our eternal family and I don't think I said her name but her name is Joy and I can't wait for that reunion and the joy that we will feel when we are together again.
0:30:13 TH: Definitely. I have to gather myself. I'm still sobbing. Tam, was there a moment though, where you were... Do you recall a moment where you were just so angry, where you had to sort through your feelings? I mean, it's part of the grief process, is anger. Was there a moment where you just really had to make a decision to either get it together or leave everything?
0:30:38 TW: I'm actually not a kind of person that gets angry even over life things and I think that helped. I know it's part of the grief process and maybe I haven't fully grieved if I haven't screamed at Heavenly Father or the people around me. But, I would say that I questioned why and if I had been there, she was in the care of her grandparents and I thought if I had been there, would she have lived? And I spent a lot of time in the temple and prayer time on my knees. Like, Heavenly Father, could I have changed this? Was this your plan? And several times I got the answers that I was looking for specifically. This was the plan and I just... I have a lot of peace about it. I know that it was the way that it was supposed to be.
0:31:42 TH: Shar, Anything you wanna add or any of your thoughts from what Tami shared?
0:31:45 SH: I love your story Tami, you are strength and a strong woman and I love when you said, just made me think, when you said "My whole life prepared me to have that faith." You didn't even think of like "Oh now I'm gonna use my faith." Right? Your whole life prepared you and instantly I thought "You are a woman that has her jar full of oil." It is full and that is because of how you live your life and when the moment came when you needed that oil, it was there, you didn't even notice the light was burning and that you had all the oil stock up because you've done it your whole life.
0:32:20 SH: Like I need to have my little oil filled up, because what if something like that happened to me? Is my faith ready just to get kicked into action and to carry me through that, right? Am I gonna have light be able to light right at that moment like yours did? And I think that's such a cool example that you were able to show us in that. So sweet and I really appreciate you sharing that story, Tami.
0:32:42 TH: Yeah, me too. It's such a sacred thing for you and I'm so glad that you shared it with us. It's interesting Tami, because when I originally had decided that you were gonna be on this episode, I thought "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's all about charity and we're gonna talk about how charity never faileth and we're gonna talk about all the charity that you received through this experience and as I wrote this lesson out and as I was preparing for it, it was just fascinating to me that it was at this moment that the spirit was like "Nope, this is where she's gonna share the story about laying hold upon every good thing." and what that looks like when you're in the midst of this turmoil and this sadness and so I just...
0:33:19 TH: I love that that's how Heavenly Father wanted this discussion to turn out 'cause that's not what I was planning on at all. So thank you for sharing that and the thing that I like about this is at the end of verse 28, it goes perfectly with this phrase at the end of verse 28, because I want everyone listening to think how Christ is advocating for their cause right now. He advocated the cause of the children of men and I think he's advocating your cause Shar, right now, you're in a hard spot, moving your family, starting a business, this is tough stuff and He is going to advocate your cause.
0:33:57 SH: Yeah and it's so great to think that He's on our side, we can do it with Him and that's what I need, I need Him with me in order to fight. It's a beautiful thing that He can be right next to us.
0:34:07 TH: Yes. That is perfect, Shar. So if faith allows us then, as we've learned to lay hold upon every good thing and Tami, your story was beautiful, then hope and charity... And you brought this up, you brought charity up, hope and charity is going to allow us to... We're gonna discuss that in the next segment.
0:34:27 TH: I need a break or some cheese or something...
0:34:28 SH: That was a lot.
0:34:29 TW: Cheese.
0:34:31 SH: That was good.
Segment 4
0:34:32 TH: What a segment. Holy. Okay... That was intense. Okay, let's get into the Moroni, because we're still in chapter 7 and we're gonna read about what he has to share that his father taught him about faith, hope and charity and we finally come to these classic verses in the book Mormon and I'm gonna finish the rest of my story. So here's where my story comes in. Okay so the seminary teacher that I had confided in, he comes in with the scriptures, He opens up to Moroni chapter 7 and he reads verses 45 and 46 to me. So Tami, will you read those in a manly voice. No, I'm just kidding.
[laughter]
0:35:11 TH: Pretend you're a seminary teacher. Here's what he read to me.
0:35:14 TW: And charity suffereth long and is kind and envieth not and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked. Thinketh no evil and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things. Hopeth all things, enduareth all things. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, you are nothing for charity never faileth. Wherefore cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all. For all things must fail.
0:35:50 TH: And I looked at him and I was so bugged and I said this, I go "Oh, I have charity. I was a social worker before. I worked at the homeless shelter. I love the homeless. I am charity." That's exactly how I said it. I'm such a jerk. I said "I am charity."
0:36:06 TW: You don't get better than me.
0:36:10 TH: Right and everything... Just the tone and every word I used, no charity there. But of course, I'm like "I am charity. What are you talking about?" I was so mad and he just looked at me and it was like a cartoon character. He blinked twice, blink, blink and then he looks back down into scriptures and all he said to me was "Well, sister Uzelac, I mean, it just says right here "Charity doesn't fail." And then he turned around and walked away. [chuckle] And I was like "Rude. Who does he think he is telling me? Giving me that charity never faileth scripture, whatever." So I made the decision right then in there to prove him that this scripture was in fact not true.
[chuckle]
0:36:52 TH: To pour out charity on every single student at this school, just to prove that charity in fact does faileth and so I did everything, I went to every game, every meet, every performance, anything my students were in, I was there front row Joe, to support everything they did. I hosted pizza parties at my home, I wrote letters to these kids. I prayed for these students and then I prayed for me and the whole time I'm like "Oh yeah, charity, never faileth. I'm gonna show you and everyone just how wrong you are.
0:37:20 TH: So I did that throughout the course of the rest that year and then the end of the year came and we'll all be darned if I didn't get transferred and so the students found out that I was not gonna be at that school that next year and I was going to a brand new high school and tears flowed plenty, they were so sad. They did... They formed a coup, they were like "We're writing a letter, you cannot leave this high school." and I was crying. I didn't wanna leave these kids. I loved them so much and they loved me and apparently charity never faileth. They were right, this scripture is true and it just was interesting. I did everything the scripture said in verse 45. I didn't seek my own. I rejoiced in them and I rejoiced in truth and I believed and I hope...
0:38:07 TH: And it's funny where it says that "hopeth all things" because I started out by hoping it would fail. That was the only place my hope was rooted in, that I was gonna be able to prove to them that charity did fail and it actually worked and so I want us to go back into Moroni chapter 7 and I want us to look at this connection because there is something about this hope and this faith that we have.
0:38:29 TH: So let's read Moroni chapter 7, we're gonna read verse 43. Actually, let's read verse 42 and 43. So Tam, will you please read Moroni chapter 7 verse 42 and 43 and as you're reading this, I want you guys to be kind of thinking like, what is the connection between hope and faith for you? How does it get us to charity? So go ahead.
0:38:49 TW: "Wherefore, if a man have faith, he must needs have hope; for without faith, there cannot be any hope and again, Behold, I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope save he shall be meek and lowly of heart."
0:39:06 TH: So what stood out to you about this first?
0:39:09 SH: I have circled in my scriptures the word 'meek' and I would love to know what that means to you.
0:39:16 TH: Oh! That's a good question. It's one of my favorite scripture words. So, meek means, it does not mean weakness, it means power in control and so it's the godly power within all of us that is in control and so I love that word 'meek'. So here's what's interesting to me and I wanna know from people on social media too, what is the connection between faith, hope and charity? Why does he connect all three of these together? And we could obviously go over what religious scholars have said and we can give you a scripture answer but I feel like the connection is personal for everyone. I think it's so unique to your own experiences in your own life and so my question is, for you what is the connection with faith, hope and charity? Why are these three things taught together and consistently, they're always taught together?
0:40:06 SH: When you just asked that question, the thought came into my head "Faith in what? And hope in who?" And it comes back to, charity is the pure love of Christ. So like in verse 47 "Charity is the pure love of Christ and it endureth forever." And so you have... You can't just have faith because what are you having faith in, right? Having faith in my savior Jesus Christ and you can't just have hope alone or I guess you can but what's the point of having hope? Hope in what he will do for me, hope in what he can bring and what he can change in my life and if I have those, then I'm gonna be more likely to be able to have charity which is his love. So I don't know, what are your thoughts?
0:40:54 TH: I like that.
0:40:56 TW: That's beautiful and I think sometimes with charity, we're thinking the service part of it, like bringing each other food, I love... We've all... We've brought each other food when we need it and we love the food, we need the food, bring the food. But thinking of it as the pure love of Christ and especially with these concepts, faith and hope, sometimes I think charity is allowing people to be who they are and loving them, even if they aren't maybe living the way you want them to live or being the person that you think they should be. This pure love, Christ loved everyone and sometimes it takes a little bit of faith and a lot of hope to have this love because of maybe the expectations that we set of how other people should be or how we should be and so I think that that is beautiful, that pure love of Christ and he was such a good example of how we should treat others and be while he was on the Earth.
0:42:03 TH: Definitely. So in Hebrew, this phrase "the pure love of Christ" can mean three different things, it just depends on what your focus is on and so when we read the pure love of Christ, here's the three different ways you can read that phrase in Hebrew, a love for Christ, a love from Christ or a love like Christ. When I was studying this and I was studying Hebrew, for me that was how it came out as faith, hope and charity. I think faith is my love for Christ, I love him, I have faith in him, I will do things for him. The hope is to love like Christ. Boy I hope I can, 'cause that is hard to do and then the charity is the love from Christ. That's his love he has for me. That's his ultimate form of charity and then we have verse 48 and this is your verse Shar, 'cause you love this verse so I want you to read it for us and tell me why you love it.
0:43:02 SH: "Wherefore, my beloved brethren and pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him. For we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope, that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen."
0:43:24 SH: It's a beautiful scripture. But a lot of times I wonder like, how in the world am I supposed to get that charity in my heart each day? How in the world is that possible? I know I should. I know what it looks like, just how? And it says "Pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart." And to me, when I read that, I was like "That's my answer. I need to do that every day." and how often do I think like "Oh, I'm gonna say my prayer. Okay." thinking about my to-do list or whatever it is and I'm not praying with all the energy of my heart. I'm not praying until I get what I need from that prayer and it doesn't have to be like "Okay, I'm gonna shut my door and lock it. 10 minutes, I gotta get this amazing prayer in, my whole heart... "
0:44:10 SH: It's not gonna happen like that every day. It can't. But if you give your heart to something, it can be quick, it can be long but if your heart's in it, it will feel different. I feel like it's switching the switch between being in this temporal physical worldly world and turning on the light switch and being in the spiritual world, when you're actually giving your heart to a prayer.
0:44:37 TH: Definitely. Well and I can attest that what you've just said is true, 100% true because that was the end result of my charity experiment and I didn't really pray with all the energy of heart but I took a step and I started doing these things to the point where my prayers really were for these kids and for myself and like you said, that finally that light switch did click on and it just took me doing little steps, little things, even though I was a jerk about it, trying to prove God wrong and I clearly learned you can't do that. [chuckle] So true. But I'm a witness that what you've said Shar, is 100% true. Absolutely so thanks for sharing your thoughts on that verse, that was a good verse.
0:45:18 TH: So Mormon then concludes his thoughts on faith, hope and charity and then he goes in a completely different direction that will address a doctrine that was heavily disputed then and it still kind of is today and we're gonna talk about that in the next segment.
Segment 5
0:45:38 TH: Alright Tam, you've sent out three missionaries so far, how have you corresponded with all three of them? Letters, video chats, what has it been like for you?
0:45:44 TW: Well, the first two, we still were emails and only calls home on Christmas and Mother's Day and third missionary out, finally, every Monday, we get to talk on the phone and it is the best. Well and it's video so I get to see the joy in her face and as she's explaining what is happening I can see it in her eyes and I love it.
0:46:09 TH: It seems like she's been on a mission for about four-and-a-half years.
0:46:13 TW: Yes, I agree, when does that girl get home?
0:46:14 TH: It's been the longest mission of anyone... When does she come home?
0:46:17 TW: Well, because she got to stay, a lot of missionaries came home and she's in Romania, which is part of the European missions that they left them in their mission, December 4th.
0:46:29 TH: Oh okay, this December.
0:46:30 SH: So it's coming up, it's coming up.
0:46:34 TH: It's been a long mission man, it usually go by fast for me, for other people's kids.
[laughter]
0:46:38 TH: Shar, did you ever write a missionary?
0:46:40 SH: Oh yeah, a bunch. [chuckle] I'll just leave it at that. I'm just kidding. [laughter] I've been known to write letters, yes, Tammy. [chuckle]
0:46:49 TH: Fantastic and we wrote weekly emails to my daughter Anna. Every week I would put pictures of what we did and then tell her about each picture so that she'd be a part of what we were missing her in and then talk to her, same with you. Well and the reason I ask this question is because Moroni chapter 8 is probably one of the sweetest personal missionary letters written from a father to a son and we just have to read these two verses.
0:47:13 TH: So in Moroni chapter 8 verse 1, it tells us that it's a letter written by Mormon to his son Moroni and it's sort of like a missionary letter and so for those of you parents out there, if you don't know what to write to your kids, go ahead and just plagiarize verses 2 and 3 Moroni and Mormon will not mind at all. I just love this letter. So let's start out with what he has to say to his son and Shar, will you please read verses 2 and 3?
0:47:34 SH: "My beloved son, Moroni, I rejoice exceedingly that your Lord Jesus Christ have been mindful of you and have called you to his ministry and to his holy work. I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite goodness and grace will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end."
0:47:55 TH: What a great letter. I love that.
0:47:57 SH: Yeah. Like "I'm thinking about you, I am thinking about you all day. I'm praying for you."
0:48:02 TW: And isn't that every parent's prayer? "I am mindful of you always"? In fact, I would say that any of my prayers that have been, with the full energy of my heart have been over my kids.
0:48:13 TH: Definitely, definitely.
0:48:14 SH: True.
0:48:16 TH: I just loved that, it was a beautiful missionary letter that we have right there. So he starts out by that and then he jumps right into the most heavily disputed doctrine that we have and so we have to talk about this and Tami, I'm gonna turn this over to you 'cause you actually have a really good story relating back to Joy about these specific verses of scripture so you share that with us.
0:48:36 TW: Yeah. So when my youngest passed away, my oldest was 11 years old and her name is Faith and she's always been very, very...
0:48:49 TH: She's her name.
0:48:51 TW: She's her name and she came to us one day and she said "Mom, Dad, can you please wait until I'm 12 so that I can perform the baptism for Joy? I wanna go to the temple and perform the baptism for Joy." And so we realized we had a teaching moment here with the kids that actually Joy does not need to be baptized and we pointed her to Moroni chapter 8 verses 8 and 9: "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me and after this manner, did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children."
0:49:58 TW: And we talked about, with her how because children don't sin, they can't repent, they don't need to be baptized and children are alive in Christ.
0:50:11 TH: Do you remember how Faith reacted?
0:50:13 TW: She was relieved and then also kind of bummed, like "Oh, so I don't get to get baptized for her."
[chuckle]
0:50:20 TH: That's cute, I like that. Well, let's put a cross-reference next to verses 8 and 9, let's go Doctrine and Covenants, section 29, verses 46 through 47, we have a couple of cross-references we're gonna use in this segment, this is the first one. So section 29, verses 46 through 47 and let's go there and it's interesting, 'cause when I say it's the most heavily contested or disputed doctrine, in the world at large it is because they baptize little children and we do not but I also think part of this doctrine is heavily disputed in our own religion, in that the idea where it says "Little children are perfect and they're not capable of committing sin."
0:50:57 TH: I always just cringe at these sweet little eight-year-old baptisms where they say "Today you're being forgiven of all your sins." like "No, we don't believe that, right here." No, today is the day they... And I've said "This is my soapbox, I'm never gonna get off of it." because that's the day we teach our kids "No, today is the first day you enter into your first covenant with Christ, that's the day you become a child of Christ." that's the doctrine we should be teaching, like "No one's being cleansed unless you're getting baptized at age 50, then you are." then that's the talk you give but... Anyway, that's my little soapbox. Okay. Doctrine and Covenants 29:46 and 47, Shar, will you read those?
0:51:34 SH: "But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten; Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me."
0:51:48 TH: Okay, that age of accountability. We're gonna do a couple of things with this. Let's go back to Moroni chapter 8 verse 10 and I'm gonna give us another cross-reference for that and continue reading Shar, in Moroni chapter 8 verse 10.
0:52:01 SH: "Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach, repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized and humble themselves as their little children and they shall all be saved with their little children."
0:52:18 TH: Alright. So it's parents who are getting baptized that need to repent, not little children. But then that word 'accountable', let's get us cross-referenced so we know where we find out what is the age of accountability and there's a scripture that tells us so cross-reference that verse with Doctrine and Covenants section 68 verse 25 and this gives us the age of accountability. Section 68 verse 25 and Tami, will you read that for us?
0:52:43 TW: "And again, in as much as parents have children in Zion or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents."
0:53:03 TH: So there's our age of accountability right there, eight years old so that's where we get it from.
0:53:07 SH: And is this the first time in scripture that the age is specifically mentioned and before this they just kind of baptized whoever whenever?
0:53:16 TH: Okay, you know what? That is such a good question, Shar. So here's something interesting, I'm thinking if we go to Genesis chapter 17, verses 11 and 12, that is where it talks about the Abrahamic covenant and I have written at the end of my page on Genesis chapter 17 verse 11, I have Joseph Smith Translation, because Joseph Smith re-translated this verse. Well, he added to it, which is interesting. So if you go to your Joseph Smith Translation, let's turn there in our scriptures. Go to Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 17:11 and you can see that at the very end of that verse where he talks about the covenant of circumcision, he then says "That thou mayest know forever that children are not accountable before me until they are eight years old."
0:54:02 TH: And there's some symbolism in that number eight because in Old Testament times, you were circumcised at eight days old so I think that's kind of alluding to this. So I thought that was interesting and baptism, it's just always existed, that's something we need to know. It's kind of elusive in the Bible but according to modern day revelation, in Moses chapter 6, it's very clear that Adam was baptized and in Moses chapter 7 and Moses chapter 8, Enoch was commanded to baptize the followers of the Lord. So it's always existed and I think that's kind of cool.
0:54:33 SH: I just asked because my son... We were reading "Come, Follow Me" a couple of weeks ago and he was like "So why didn't Jesus get baptized when he was 30 and not when he was eight?" And I was like "Well, because he was perfect, dude and he just wanted to set an example so he didn't need to set an example till he was about 30." and that was a lame answer.
[laughter]
0:54:52 TH: Well, that's a good answer. That's a really good answer. In fact, it's kind of cool because baptism, it wasn't a new ordinance among the Jews at the time of Christ. When John the Baptist came among the people, they came to hear John and in the scriptures it doesn't say that they asked what he was doing, they only asked who he was, like "Who's this guy to baptize?" So I think that is really interesting in that he was 30. Okay and then there's more in Moroni chapter 8 and we just don't have time to go over everything but I did wanna ask both of you this, is there anything specific that you marked in Moroni chapter 8?
0:55:27 TW: Well, of course, verse 12 "But little children are alive in Christ." In fact, the whole verse. "But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so God is a partial God and also a changeable God and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!" And in 17 "And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation." I mean, we've said this before, if you get the nursery calling, you know this is true.
0:56:07 TH: Best calling in the church, hands down. My husband loves that. He and two of his best friends are in there and they...
0:56:16 TW: Are the best nursery leaders ever.
0:56:18 TH: They really are.
0:56:21 TW: Yeah.
0:56:22 TH: Shar, did you mark anything?
0:56:22 SH: Yeah. I just have marked verse 26, and the remission of sins bringeth meekness. It's going... Kind of repeating what he talked about in seven a little bit but I like it 'cause it's in this letter that he got from his dad and so he's like, This is where it came from, this is where Moroni is learning it from his dad.
0:56:44 SH: But I just liked the part that said, because of meekness and loneliness of heart, cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer and there it is again, it popped out to me again like, if you're not praying, you're not gonna have it and I just love that, how it connected back with that one in 7:48.
0:57:05 TH: It does. Marking that. Marking everything you guys said. Okay and then he ends in verse... I like how he ends in Verse 30, Fair well my son, until I shall write unto you again or shall meet you again." and he is going to write unto them again and then in the next segment, we're gonna read what the next letter was from Mormon to his son, Moroni.
Segment 6
0:57:28 TH: Okay so we're going to go back to where we started. On a scale of one to 10, how discouraging do you think this year has been? Overall, what grade you're gonna give it?
0:57:38 SH: It's been discouraging Tammy. It's a 10.
0:57:42 TH: One, not at all. 10, totally tough.
0:57:45 TW: Not as tough as 2008 was for me.
0:57:48 TH: That's true. You do have a different gauge that you're gonna mark this with.
0:57:52 TW: That's true.
0:57:52 TH: Yours is not a 10. What is your year Tam?
0:57:55 TW: This year, I loved having everybody home. We did the quarantine with the married daughter and her husband and the college kids and I loved it.
0:58:06 TH: It was your heaven. That's true.
0:58:06 TW: It was kind of my heaven on earth during that time.
0:58:10 TH: What would you say it is for most people in general, if the world at large, really give it a number?
0:58:15 SH: I think it was a #Skip2020 kind of a year, right?
0:58:22 TW: Yeah.
0:58:24 TH: Yeah.
0:58:24 TW: Especially, my husband kept his job worked from home. I mean, I have a lot of blessings this year and I think overall, that probably is not the case. People are out of work and a lot of people are home schooling right now and so I feel blessed but I know that's not the case for everyone.
0:58:42 TH: I mean, for some people this year is like a negative 30. It's been hard. It's been a hard, hard year and what is so interesting about that is that Moroni chapter 9, it is gruesome. This letter that Mormon's writing and Shar, it's interesting 'cause you texted me and I want to know your thoughts on this. You texted me the contrast between Moroni chapter 7 and then Moroni chapter 9. What did you see as you... 'cause you said that was the most... That's what stood out to you the most.
0:59:09 SH: I mean, Moroni here at the end of his life alone, sitting there, has bridged all the plates. He's just reading his dad's letters and I can just see him at the end here and it's all done and he's like "Huh! Well, I'm still sitting around here. Maybe I should put more in this book." "Okay, I'm gonna add my dad's letters in here." "Okay. Still sitting around here. What else do I need to do Heavenly Father?"
0:59:37 SH: But I just love that he put these letters in and this last letter that he put in from his dad was like "Hey, this is what life is like. This is what's going on. This is terrible. We are living in a world that is gloom, that is dark, that is... There's not light here and looking through nine, it is horrific. Verse eight, husbands and fathers and those women and children, they've slain and they feed the women upon the flesh of their husbands and the children upon the flesh of their fathers. Oh!
1:00:10 TH: This is horrible.
1:00:11 SH: You just read this and you think "I'm looking to read that out loud to my kids." like oh, that's terrible.
1:00:17 TH: Yeah and Mormon's describing his day and we've already read how horrible it was when we studied Mormon and now he's adding even more insight. Look, this is how bad it is, it's so bad.
1:00:26 SH: Yup and in verse 18; they were without order and without mercy and then in 19; they delight in everything save that which is good. So they just loved the wicked. They loved the bad. It's just like, you can't get worse than this, right? And so Moroni puts his letter in and I just think it's really beautiful in contrast with chapter seven, because seven, he started it out by saying, "Hey, I'm still sitting around here. I'm gonna write the words that I heard my father teach." and so that's what seven is. Is this, all these things that you learned from his dad and so Moroni is in this world of darkness and evil and what's in His heart is chapter Seven and his heart is filled with... I have faith, I have hope, I have charity. This is what my dad taught me. This is what I'm holding on to till the end and he's like; that's what's in my heart and this is what's going on in the world and we can be in a world like this and still have that in our heart and I love that contrast that he showed us that with what he was living in the last days of his life.
1:01:37 TH: Absolutely. Tami, you keep going to jump in. Tell us...
1:01:41 TW: Well, I don't wanna interrupt. That was amazing.
1:01:45 TH: It was. It's awesome. I'm gonna come back to it.
1:01:48 TW: But one of the things I notice in verse 12, he says and only a few years have passed and they were a civil and delightsome people. So it's not like for 20 years, these people have been feeding the flesh to the people. This just happened. It's amazing how quickly, if you lose the light, how quickly you can spiral to not just being kind of a bad guy but arguably the most horrific kind of human that you could be in just a few years.
1:02:22 TH: That is absolutely right. Oh my gosh! Okay so this is perfect. With what both of you have just shared and said then, and especially Shar, where you're talking about the juxtaposition between Moroni chapter seven and then Moroni nine, here's what's so beautiful about this letter. Is that Mormon is then gonna say to his son, "But you know what, I've got some advice for you. Here's what I've got, that's going to help you get through these really dark times so let's read this Council, we're gonna really dissect this verse and see if it is the best advice that we could receive for the war that we're in.
1:02:56 TH: Let's read Moroni chapter 9, verse 25. I'm gonna read it and I want you guys to mark this verse up and let's see what we come up with. "My son, be faithful in Christ and may not the things which I have written grieve thee to weigh thee down on to death but may Christ lift thee up and may his sufferings and death and the showing his body unto our fathers and His mercy and long suffering and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, rest in your minds forever.
1:03:28 TH: What's his advice? Sum it up for me. What stood out to you for the advice?
1:03:33 TW: Be faithful in Christ. Make Christ lift thee up.
1:03:39 SH: I like how he says; "Don't let the things that I've written grieve thee and weigh thee down. It's like you know what, life is tough. This is hard and there's evil everywhere but don't let that be the only thing that you focus on and that you spend your day worrying about and all of the energy of your heart, don't let it be on that but let Christ be that focus.
1:04:02 TH: Yeah. When he says...
1:04:04 TW: Can I just add something...
1:04:05 TH: Oh, please.
1:04:08 TW: When my daughter passed away, I would say that that was very hard and I think that I could tell that the Savior was carrying me and as time went on, I could kind of feel, not that he left me but he was kind of letting me go a little bit like, "Okay, you've got this." I could fill the difference between being 100% carried and as we transition into kind of like, okay, you've got this, you're strong. You can take it now. I could feel the difference a little bit and I still wanted that light and I kind of missed it a little bit, kind of wanting him to terry a little longer and I can say that I have felt what it feels like to be lifted and it's a beautiful thing when we talk about that rest in Christ, I long for that and I felt being lifted by Christ.
1:05:05 TH: Thank you, Tom. That was a perfect explanation of that. Christ lifting thee up. That was great. In this verse right here, he says at the very end, let these things rest in your mind forever. What did you highlight? What is he telling his son to let rest in His mind forever. What are the things?
1:05:25 SH: I like how he says "And the hope... " and he goes back to that hope and glory of eternal life. First he says, "Be faithful and remember Jesus and all that He did for us. His atonement... " and then he says "And then hope. Have hope of His glory."
1:05:42 TH: So I wanna know if this really does work and Shar, I think of you. I wanna know how has keeping your mind rested on the atonement of Jesus Christ been able to get you through hard times? Does it really work? Like when you're in the depths of it, when you are in the absolute place of sorrow and you don't know how you're gonna get out, is it as easy as thinking about Jesus?
1:06:03 SH: I think it is. I mean, it's easier said than done but I think for me, it has been those moments kind of like that light switch when I allow my heart and my spirit to turn on and I think of him and I have faith or however I try to do it, it's hard to say like; okay, now I'm having faith. Now, I'm having hope. It just kind of is for me personally but I do feel like when I turn on that switch of, I'm gonna be in my spirit, I'm not just gonna be a person on Earth being worldly but I'm gonna connect with my spirit and I think about my Savior Jesus Christ, then it brings something to me and whether that's light or whether that's hope or whatever it is, it fills me up.
1:06:58 TH: Thank you, thank you for explaining that. I like it. I think you're absolutely right. Anything else Tam you wanna share?
1:07:06 TW: I think remembering that it's a process to go through these hard things and it doesn't have to be okay tomorrow. I know that I will see joy again and that thought, when I look at what happened to me with the spiritual glasses or this knowing the plan, it makes it just a little bit easier in that I know that it's okay.
1:07:32 TH: Amen. That's an amen for me from both of you, thank you for sharing those thoughts. Going back to that verse then, here's my challenge for the week. As you're studying the scripture and as you're reading the scriptures, I want you to just take one of those aspects of Christ, His sufferings or his death, the showing of His body, His mercy, His long-suffering, his hope, his glory or the word eternal life and all I want you to do this week is let one of those words rest on your mind. Just have that be a word you think about all week. If it means just writing it on a sticky note and putting it in your car. If it means putting it next to your bedside table, whatever that word is that stands out you, I just want you to think about that word today in connection with the Savior and let it rest on your mind.
1:08:17 TH: And I think that if we do that starting with one word, I think letting it rest on our minds forever, is going to be what... The one thing we're going to need as we continue in our lives, in this war that we're in and it's going to be the one thing that will help us to continue to be peaceable followers of Christ so that we can love like him, we can be loved from him and we can love him. We can have charity through focusing and having those things rest on our main forever.
1:08:45 TH: So think about a word and just make that your word for the week and maybe make that whole verse something you're gonna do for 2021 and you don't have to study it. I'm just gonna look at that word mercy probably for the next couple of weeks on a sticky note and I'm gonna stick it in my car and then my kids might ask me about it and then we get to talk about it so it will rest on our minds forever so thank you.
1:09:07 TH: Thank you ladies. That was so fun. Friends we're glad. That's the end of our episode.
1:09:11 TW: That was so great.
1:09:15 TH: It was so great. Okay so think back to everything we studied today and tell me what your takeaway was. What's something that just stood out to you or that you learned or as you were reading?
1:09:22 SH: I think mine was about charity. I loved what you said Tammy about love of Christ, love like Christ and love from Christ. I'm gonna think about that a lot more but I really loved that in connection with faith, hope and charity.
1:09:39 TW: One thing that I learned today and one of my takeaways is when you taught us about meekness and how that's not being wimpy but it's actually being power in control and remember to be meek like unto little children, 'cause we know that Christ loves little children.
1:10:01 TH: He does. He's loving on that Joy, right now.
1:10:03 TW: Yes, he is.
1:10:04 TH: Thank you. My takeaway was our discussion on to serve diligently in the light of Christ, because I didn't know what it meant. I mean, I have some ideas but Shar, when you explained how you can't look for things in the dark, that you need light to find them and whatever it is you're searching for, that was a good moment for me because there's a lot of times I am searching. I'm searching for answers, I'm searching for reasons and I can get the answers in his light so that was my take away and then I sobbed it like a baby during Tami's story so.
1:10:35 TW: Yeah.
1:10:36 TH: I'll take that moment away for the rest to my life and the other ones we had together. We don't even have enough time to share all of our stories. Someday we will but that was a sacred experience to be there with you and for those of you who have joined us this week with our discussion on Moroni chapter seven through nine, I would love to hear what your takeaway was from this episode and if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook and if you're not following us on Instagram, go there and follow us. It is so much fun. Go on Instagram and just type in Sunday on Monday podcast and join and follow along.
1:11:07 TH: All week, we just post great questions and we want people to engage and tell us some of your thoughts and ideas about what we've studied and I try to answer anything that people post during the week and it's fun to read what other people have to say about some of the questions and ideas and then every week at the end of the week, it's usually on a Sunday, we post for a call for your take away, so comment on the post that relates to this lesson and let us know what you learned and I read every single one. It's my favorite thing. I love to learn from what you're learning.
1:11:34 TH: You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. It's not a bad idea to go there anyway because that's where we have links to all the references and transcripts of this whole discussion. So go check that out.
1:11:49 TH: The Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall and today, our beautiful, just besties, study group participants for Tami Weaver in Sharmaine Howell and you can find more information about these ladies at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.
1:12:08 TH: Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert. It is recorded and mixed by Mix At 6 Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here this week, you guys. We'll see you next week and please remember; with faith, grace and hope, we can have glory in Jesus Christ that we are God's favorite.
1:12:26 SH: Tami, how's pickleball?
1:12:28 TW: Oh so fun. My cousin, I've never played with him. He called me, he lives in St. George, he's 10 years younger than me so he hopefully is very athletic. Anyway, he's like "Will you do a tournament with me?
1:12:41 SH: Oh my gosh. You are sought after.
1:12:45 TW: I've never played mixed. I've never played mixed so like a boy and a girl and they... My friends tell me they target the girls.
1:12:50 SH: 'Cause they think you're the weaker link.
1:12:51 TW: Well, they think you are. It doesn't matter 'cause even if you start so I'm like; Oh, now I'm nervous so I'm gonna try it.
1:12:58 SH: But you're not gonna be the weaker link, which is the cool part, right?
1:13:01 TH: Right. She's gonna blow them away. She's like a big time...
[overlapping conversation]
1:13:06 TH: Tami's a big time Pickleball player. She doesn't just dabble in it. It's not like you play for fun. You... She plays in tournaments.
1:13:15 TW: Well, I play for fun but I play a lot, for fun. Don't ask me where it is on my list of priorities 'cause it should probably be lower than it is.
1:13:26 TH: As Mike said to you. We're your first... We're your family. So everything.
1:13:32 TW: Yeah, he's kind of like, "This is your real life."
1:13:34 SH: This is your real family here. Not the Pickleball family.
1:13:37 TW: This is your real life.
[laughter]
1:13:42 TH: Like no it's not. It's not about...
1:13:42 SH: So fun.