42: “I Would That I Could Persuade All … to Repent” (Mormon 1–6)
War, wickedness, destruction, sorrowing of the damned—there’s no shortage of grief in Mormon 1–6. And the saddest part is that all this heartache follows hundreds of the most peaceful, righteous years the people of Nephi ever had. But these chapters, no matter how tragic, hold vital lessons for our spiritual survival during the latter days. So grab your tissues and let’s dig into this week’s lesson.
Books Referenced in this Episode:
The Book of Mormon: Fourth Nephi through Moroni, From Zion to Destruction by Charles D. Tate and Monte S. Nyman
Quote: "If you have tears, prepare to shed them because we come to the book of Mormon now. It starts out with a colophon which tells us it was an autograph. It was written by his own hand. The colophon should tell you what the book is about, who wrote it, and under what circumstances" (Hugh Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon, Part 2, Semester 4, Lecture 104).
Colophon of the Book of Mormon:
Who: Mormon wrote the first 7 chapters of the book, his son Moroni wrote chapters 8-9.
Why: Mormon wrote to Gentiles and members of the house of Israel in the latter days, desiring to “persuade all [the] ends of the earth to repent and prepare to stand before the judgment-seat of Christ” (Mormon 3:22).
When and Where: Mormon likely wrote chapters 1–7 of this book between AD 345 and AD 401 (see Mormon 2:15–17; 8:5–6). He finished his writings after the final battle between the Nephites and the Lamanites at Cumorah in AD 385 (see Mormon 6:10–15; 7:1). Moroni probably wrote the material in chapters 8–9 between the years AD 401 and AD 421, as he wandered “for the safety of [his] life” (see Mormon 8:4–6; Moroni 1:1–3).
What was 10-year-old Mormon like?
2 And about the time that aAmmaron hid up the records unto the Lord, he came unto me, (I being about ten years of age, and I began to be blearned somewhat after the manner of the learning of my people) and Ammaron said unto me: I perceive that thou art a csober child, and art quick to observe;
- Sober = Thoughtful character, regular; calm; not under the influence of passion (see Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
- Quick to observe = Saw all that was happening around him.
Quote: “When we are quick to observe, we promptly look or notice and obey. Both of these fundamental elements—looking and obeying—are essential to being quick to observe. And the prophet Mormon is an impressive example of this gift in action” (Elder David A. Bednar, “Quick to Observe,” Ensign, Dec. 2006).
What happens to Mormon in Mormon 1:6–8?
6 And it came to pass that I, being eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla.
7 The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.
8 And it came to pass in this year there began to be a war between the aNephites, who consisted of the Nephites and the Jacobites and the Josephites and the Zoramites; and this war was between the Nephites, and the Lamanites and the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites (Mormon 1:6–8).
What was Mormon like as a teenager?
2 Therefore it came to pass that in my sixteenth year I did go forth at the head of an army of the Nephites, against the Lamanites; therefore three hundred and twenty and six years had passed away (Mormon 2:2).
Mormon The name Mormon means “more good,” according to Joseph Smith.
Quote: "It has been stated that this word was derived from the Greek word mormo. This is not the case. . . . The word Mormon, means literally, more good" (History of the Church, Book 5, Volume 21, pg. 400, byustudies.byu.edu).
As bad as the times were that Mormon was raised in, he also had to raised a son in a time that was worse.
11 And when they had gone through and hewn down aall my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me (Mormon 6:11).
13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his abeloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people.
What were the "heavenly gifts" that were taken away?
5 And there were great and marvelous works wrought by the disciples of Jesus, insomuch that they did aheal the sick, and braise the dead, and cause the lame to walk, and the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear; and all manner of cmiracles did they work among the children of men; and in nothing did they work miracles save it were in the name of Jesus (4 Nephi 1:5).
Why did the Lord do this?
19 And it came to pass that there were asorceries, and witchcrafts, and magics; and the power of the evil one was wrought upon all the face of the land, even unto the fulfilling of all the words of Abinadi, and also bSamuel the Lamanite. (Mormon 1:19).
8 But behold, the land was afilled with brobbers and with Lamanites; and notwithstanding the great destruction which hung over my people, they did not repent of their evil doings; therefore there was blood and carnage spread throughout all the face of the land, both on the part of the Nephites and also on the part of the Lamanites; and it was one complete revolution throughout all the face of the land (Mormon 2:8).
Quote: “This is very dangerous if we go on thinking we don't have to repent because other people are wicked" (Hugh Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon, Part Two, "Semester 4, Lecture 104, 4 Nephi 1:2 — Mormon 2 Church Growth and Decline; Mormon Leads the Nephites").
1 And it came to pass in that same year there began to be a war again between the Nephites and the Lamanites. And notwithstanding I being ayoung, was large in stature; therefore the people of Nephi appointed me that I should be their leader, or the leader of their armies (Mormon 2:1).
Mormon chapter two is, "One of the loneliest scenes in scriptural history," according to Elder Jeffrey R. Holland (Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Christ and the New Covenant, Deseret Book).
10 And it came to pass that the Nephites began to repent of their iniquity, and began to cry even as had been prophesied by Samuel the prophet; for behold no man could akeep that which was his own, for the thieves, and the robbers, and the murderers, and the magic art, and the witchcraft which was in the land.
12 And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation and their amourning and their sorrow before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering of the Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them that they would bagain become a righteous people.
13 But behold this my joy was vain, for their asorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the bsorrowing of the cdamned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take dhappiness in sin (Mormon 2:10–13).
- Dammed means to stop in progression and Damned means condemned (Kelly Ogden, Andrew C. Skinner, Book of Mormon Verse by Verse Vol. 2, pg. 236).
“There are different kinds of sorrow. Thieves, robbers, murderers, adulterers, etc., are frequently sorrowful because they have been detected in the crimes they have committed. They are not sorrowful because they have sinned against God, or because they have injured others; but they are sorry because their crimes have been exposed, or that they have been prevented from a realization of the happiness which they anticipated. This is the sorrow of the world; and it is of the same nature as the sorrowing of the evil spirits in hell: they are sorry when they fail to accomplish their malicious designs against God and His people. This kind of sorrow worketh death."
"This kind of sorrow will lead us to obey every commandment of God; it will make us humble and childlike in our dispositions; it will impart unto us meekness and lowliness of mind; it will cause our hearts to be broken and our spirits to be contrite; it will cause us to watch, with great carefulness, every word, thought, and deed; it will call up our past dealings with mankind, and we will feel most anxious to make restitution to all whom we may have, in any way, injured. ...These, and many other good things, are the results of Godly sorrow for sin. This is repentance not in word, but in deed: this is the sorrow with which the heavens are pleased" (Elder Orson Pratt, Orson Pratt: Writings of an Apostle, "True Repentance," pp. 30-31; for a more extensive discussion of the sorrow for sins that yields true repentance, see Brent L. Top, Though Your Sins Be As Scarlet, pp. 43-65).
15 And it came to pass that my sorrow did return unto me again, and I saw that the aday of bgrace cwas passed with them, both temporally and spiritually; for I saw thousands of them hewn down in open drebellion against their God, and heaped up as edung upon the face of the land. And thus three hundred and forty and four years had passed away (Mormon 2:14–15).
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many awitnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not bprocrastinate the day of your crepentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the dnight of edarkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful acrisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world (Alma 34:33–34).
Quote: “In perhaps the most chilling line he ever wrote, Mormon asserted simply, 'I saw that the day of grace was passed with them, both temporally and spiritually.' His people had learned that most fateful of all lessons—that the Spirit of God will not always strive with man; that it is possible, collectively as well as individually, to have time run out. The day of repentance can pass, and it had passed for the Nephites. Their numbers were being 'hewn down in open rebellion against their God,' and in a metaphor almost too vivid in its moral commentary, they were being 'heaped up as dung upon the face of the land' (Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Christ and the New Covenant, Deseret Book, pg. 319).
Mormon 2:22: In the 346th year, the Lamanites came to war.
Mormon 2:23: Mormon gives a bold speech to fight for wives, children, houses, and homes. It kind of worked, the Nephites united and fought but not with the strength of the Lord.
Mormon 2:28: In the 350th year, a treaty is made beteewn Nephites and the Lamanites/Gadianton Robbers.
Mormon 3:1: There are 10 years of peace.
Mormon 3:2-3: The Lord tells Mormon to “cry unto the people to repent” but it didn’t work because their hearts were too hard.
Mormon 3:7: The Nephites battle the Lamanites.
Mormon 3:8: There's another and the Nephites win.
What were the people's reaction to winning this battle?
9 And now, because of this great thing which my people, the Nephites, had done, they began to aboast in their own strength, and began to swear before the heavens that they would avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren who had been slain by their enemies.
What was Mormon's reaction?
12 Behold, I had led them, notwithstanding their wickedness I had led them many times to battle, and had loved them, according to the alove of God which was in me, with all my heart; and my soul had been poured out in prayer unto my God all the day long for them; nevertheless, it was bwithout faith, because of the chardness of their hearts (Mormon 3:11–12).
- "The twelve apostles Jesus chose in the Holy Land will judge all the twelve tribes of Israel, and the twelve apostles Jesus chose in ancient America will judge this remnant of Israel under the direction of that Old World quorum" (Kelly Ogden, Andrew C. Skinner, Verse by Verse: The Book of Mormon Vol. 2, Deseret Book).
- The Judgement Seat of Christ: The Greek word is "Bema," a platform to which someone walked up to receive judgment
- "The word judgment may be misleading. The usual meaning of the word to us in the twentieth century is to pass sentence or determine innocence or guilt. This interpretation, however, gives only half of the broader meaning as used in the Book of Mormon concerning the judgment of Christ. It speaks of the judgment of Christ as a time of reward as well as a time of accountability for the acts of mortals. It is similar to the biblical injunction of “being weighed in the balances” (Dan. 5:27), where consideration is given to both the positive and the negative acts of the individual. It further clarifies that there will be apostles or special witnesses at the judgment seat of Christ to testify in behalf of or against the persons being judged" (Charles D. Tate Jr., Monte S. Nyman, The Book of Mormon; Fourth Nephi Through Moroni, From Zion to Destruction, "The Judgment Seat of Christ," Deseret Book).
Quote: "From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become" (President Dallin H. Oaks, "The Challenge to Become," October 2000 general conference).
Quote: “If you have made covenants, keep them. If you haven’t made them, make them. If you have made them and broken them, repent and repair them. It is never too late so long as the Master … says there is time. Please listen to the prompting of the Holy Spirit telling you right now, this very moment, that you should accept the atoning gift of the Lord Jesus Christ and enjoy the fellowship of His labor. Don’t delay. It’s getting late” (Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, “The Laborers in the Vineyard,” April 2012 general conference).
What stands out to you about Mormon chapter 4?
5 But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the awicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are bpunished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed (Mormon 4:4–5).
11 And it is impossible for the tongue to describe, or for man to write a perfect description of the horrible scene of the blood and carnage which was among the people, both of the Nephites and of the Lamanites; and every heart was hardened, so that they adelighted in the shedding of blood continually (Mormon 4:11).
14 And they did also march forward against the city Teancum, and did drive the inhabitants forth out of her, and did take many prisoners both women and children, and did offer them up as asacrifices unto their idol gods (Mormon 4:14).
How did Mormon feel about his people?
2 But behold, I was awithout hope, for I knew the judgments of the Lord which should come upon them; for they repented not of their iniquities, but did struggle for their lives without calling upon that Being who created them (Mormon 5:2).
What happened because the people wouldn't repent?
7 And it came to pass that we did again take to flight, and those whose flight was swifter than the Lamanites’ did escape, and those whose flight did not exceed the Lamanites’ were swept down and destroyed (Mormon 5:7).
11 For I know that such will sorrow for the calamity of the house of Israel; yea, they will sorrow for the destruction of this people; they will sorrow that this people had not repented that they might have been clasped in the arms of Jesus (Mormon 5:11).
- Kafar, the Hebrew word for Atonement, is: “Closely related is the Aramaic and Arabic word kafat, meaning ‘a close embrace’—no doubt related to the Egyptian ritual embrace. References to that embrace are evident in the Book of Mormon. One states that ‘the Lord hath redeemed my soul … ; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love’ [2 Nephi 1:15]. Another proffers the glorious hope of our being ‘clasped in the arms of Jesus’ [Mormon 5:11]” (President Russell M. Nelson, “The Atonement,” Ensign, Nov. 1996, 34).
Quote: “The Lord’s desire that we come unto Him and be wrapped in His arms is often an invitation to repent.
“The scriptures speak of His arms being open, extended, stretched out, and encircling. They are described as mighty and holy, arms of mercy, arms of safety, arms of love, ‘lengthened out all the day long’ [2 Nephi 28:32].
“We have each felt to some extent these spiritual arms around us. We have felt His forgiveness, His love and comfort. The Lord has said, ‘I am he [who] comforteth you’ [2 Nephi 8:12]" (Elder Neil L. Andersen, “'Repent … That I May Heal You,'” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2009, 40).
18 But now, behold, they are aled about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind, or as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves, without sail or anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her; and even as she is, so are they (Mormon 5:18).
Quote: “Without Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and Their influence in our lives, we have no shepherd. Without Them, there is no sail—meaning there is no power. Without Them, there is no anchor—meaning there is no stability, especially in times of storm. Without Them, there is nothing with which to steer—meaning there is no direction” (Elder Dale G Renlund, "Experience God’s Love," December 3, 2019, BYU Speeches).
6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were asacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would bdestroy them) therefore I made cthis record out of the plates of Nephi, and dhid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were ethese few plates which I gave unto my son fMoroni (Mormon 6:6).
What happened during the battle?
7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the aarmies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful bfear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.
8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.
9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.
11 And when they had gone through and hewn down aall my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me (Mormon 6:7–11).
- 10,000 in Hebrew: A great multitude, so great can’t number.
- Nfi is an Egyptian hieroglyph meaning 'good, beautiful, fair, pleasant.' It is where we get the name Nephi from (“Oh Ye Fair Ones’—Revisited Matthew L. Bowen Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship 20 (2016): 315-344).
- Another definition of fair is "honest, dealing justly, favorable, prosperous." (see Webster's 1828 dictionary).
- 16 And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites. And thus ended the thirteenth year (3 Nephi 2:16).
- 10 And now, behold, it came to pass that the people of Nephi did wax strong, and did multiply exceedingly fast, and became an exceedingly afair and delightsome people (4 Nephi 1:10).
20 But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return.
21 And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become aincorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.
22 O that ye had repented before this great adestruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, bknoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his cjustice and dmercy (Mormon 6:17–22).
Quote: "The very first word in the Doctrine and Covenants is hearken. It means “to listen with the intent to obey.” To hearken means to “hear Him”—to hear what the Savior says and then to heed His counsel. In those two words—“Hear Him”—God gives us the pattern for success, happiness, and joy in this life. We are to hear the words of the Lord, hearken to them, and heed what He has told us!" (President Russell M. Nelson, "Hear Him," April 2020 general conference).
0:00:01 Tammy Uzelac Hall: Hugh Nibley said, "If you have tears, prepare to shed them because we come to the book of Mormon now." And I couldn't agree more. I had such a unique experience reading these six chapters in the Book of Mormon, I actually cried. I was so surprised at the depth of sorrow that I felt for Mormon and his people. I read it straight through just like a novel, and as I did I became increasingly shocked, and then I was saddened, then I got doubtful, and I was just struck by the behaviors of those that we're gonna read about in Mormon chapter 1-6 today. I read words such as war, wickedness, unbelief, willfully rebelled, power of the evil one was wrought upon the land, great destruction, souring of the damned, great calamity, and a continual scene of wickedness and abominations, so you may be able to see why this section is just so sad. So grab your tissues and let's begin our study of Mormon's record.
0:01:00 TH: Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group. It's a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the Scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, I just wanna make sure that you know how to use this podcast. So it's about an hour long and you can listen to it all at once, or if you don't have a solid hour, what I like about it is that this podcast is broken up into six segments, one for each day, and they're about 10-12 minutes long. So you can listen while running errands, on a walk, picking up kids from school, whatever, on the subway, anything.
0:01:34 TH: Now either way, we're just glad that you're studying with us and we hope you like the podcast as much as our friend, Kristin Olin, who shared a very touching post on Facebook. And she talked about how much the podcast means to her, and it meant so much to her that we found out that she actually paid for her sister's subscription to Deseret Bookshelf PLUS so that they could listen to the podcast. How cool is that? So thank you, Kristin, and thank you to Kristin's sisters, we love you guys. Now, another great thing about our study group is that each week we're joined by two of my friends, and so it's always gonna be different, and today we've got two of my very good friends who I'm so excited to have with me today, and it is Rochelle and Brent Baugh. They're totally related.
0:02:12 TH: Hi, guys.
0:02:13 Rochelle Baugh: Hello.
0:02:14 Brent Baugh: Hello.
0:02:14 TH: How did you two meet? [chuckle]
0:02:17 BB: That's a long story. You don't wanna hear it, I don't think.
0:02:20 RB: Like now, with young adults.
0:02:22 BB: Yep. That's probably the easiest way to say it. [chuckle]
0:02:24 TH: How long have you been married?
0:02:26 BB: Rochelle, we'll test you. Twenty-eight-and-a-half years.
0:02:29 RB: Twenty-eight, yeah.
0:02:31 BB: Yeah.
0:02:31 TH: Fantastic. Now I know Rochelle and Brent because we are in the same ward, and I have served with Rochelle in several different callings or different capacities, and I'm just gonna tell you right now, I want her on my wagon train or in charge of my wagon train if we really have to walk back to Missouri. I want her in charge. And anyone who knows Rochelle Baugh right now is laughing and going, "Yep, that is totally Rochelle."
0:02:54 TH: She's the most organized do-it person you're ever gonna meet. Am I right, Brent?
0:02:57 BB: You're right.
0:02:58 TH: Yeah.
0:03:00 BB: I agree, totally.
0:03:01 TH: Anyone out there listening who knows the prophet, just put Rochelle Baugh at the top of your list for...
0:03:05 TH: For making the efforts because she's so organized and I've loved serving with her 'cause I know everything's gonna get done, it's been awesome.
0:03:11 RB: Well, we'll have a good staff, I know that.
0:03:15 TH: Yeah.
0:03:16 RB: Lots to pull from.
0:03:17 TH: Well, for those of you who want to know more about my guests, or see pictures of them and their cute family, you can find more information about them and pictures at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Now Mormon, the book, 'cause every time I say the Book of Mormon I'm not talking about the Book of Mormon whole, just the actual book. So this is kind of cool. Mormon writes to us after everything has already happened, and then he begins by retelling his story. And why did I tell you that? Because it's so important to know, it changes the lens with which you're going to view this Book of Mormon. At least it did for me. Now something neat about this is that Hugh Nibley called the beginning of this book a colophon, and a colophon tells you what the book is about, who wrote it and under what circumstances. So let's see if we can answer those questions in Mormon chapter 1. So friends, grab your Scriptures and let's dig in. So here's how Mormon is a colophon as Hugh Nibley put it. The who, who wrote it? That's found in Mormon chapter 1:1. Mormon wrote the first seven chapters of the book, and then he hands the plates to his son who will write chapters 8 through 9, and that's Moroni.
0:04:21 TH: Who was it written for? Mormon wrote to the Gentiles and members of the house of Israel in the latter days, so that's to us. And he desired to persuade all the ends of the earth to repent and prepare and stand before the judgment seat of Christ. And we'll talk about that in a later segment. The when and where was it written? So Mormon, they believe he likely wrote chapters 1 through 7 of this book between AD 345 and AD 401. He finished his writings after the final battle between the Nephites and the Lamanites at Cumorah in AD 385. Now, Moroni probably wrote the material in chapters 8 through 9 between the years of 401 AD and 421 AD as he wandered, and he says, "for the safety of his life." So that's our colophon, it answered those questions for us. So now we're gonna jump in, and I have a question for both of you. Brent and Rochelle, you have a son. And Brent, you were young once, so tell me, how would you describe a 10-year-old boy? What word would you use?
0:05:24 TH: Especially your 10 year-old-boy.
0:05:24 BB: Boy.
0:05:26 TH: I love that kid.
0:05:27 RB: We talk about this with our nephew. We have lots of nephews about that age, and we had conversations.
0:05:31 BB: Yes. And we discussed, "Who would you give the plates to?" That's a tough question. I do have one nephew that, he's kind of a sober kid and I might give 'em to him, but that's really young. I could see someone, 12, 13, 14, maybe, or 15, but 10, that stuck out to me.
0:05:49 TH: Yeah. Well, I don't have any son so I don't even know what boys are like. What are they like at 10 years old, typically?
0:05:54 BB: Oh, boy, 10 years old...
0:05:57 RB: They need to be active. I used to wrestle with my son, and my daughters are like, they, "Oh, you're not." I'm like, "He needs something, he needs... " [laughter] So I would wrestle with him.
0:06:08 TH: That's fantastic. Okay, so let's jump in and see what this has to do with Mormon. Go to Mormon chapter 1, we're gonna read verse 2. And Rochelle, will you read verse 2 for us?
0:06:17 RB: "And about the time that Ammaron hid up the records unto the Lord, he came unto me, I being about ten years of age, and I began to be learned somewhat after the manner of the learning of my people, and Ammaron said unto me: I perceive that thou art a sober child and art quick to observe."
0:06:34 TH: Thank you. Now, Brent, you brought up this word "sober", let's mark the two qualities about Mormon in verse 2, "the sober child" and then "art quick to observe". We're gonna define what these two are. So sober means he's thoughtful in character, and he's not under the influence of any kind of passion, he's just a calm kid. And then I like the quick to observe, it means all that was happening around him, he's seeing. I specifically like Elder Bednar's definition of this "quick to observe". Let's read this quote, and Brent, will you read this for us?
0:07:06 BB: "When we are quick to observe, we promptly look or notice and obey, both of these fundamental elements looking and obeying are essential to being quick to observe, and the Prophet Mormon is an impressive example of this gift in action."
0:07:20 TH: Is that a normal behavior for a 10-year-old boy?
0:07:23 BB: No!
0:07:26 TH: Not at all. So here's my question for you then, can it be taught? I wanna know from you as parents, aunts, uncles or youth leaders, is there anything we can do to help our youth become more like Mormon, quick to observe or sober?
0:07:44 RB: That's tough.
0:07:46 BB: Well, I'm a dentist, okay, and I know when I have a child come into the office is brushing their teeth... This is terrible. They brush their teeth, their parents are brushing their teeth, so they're observing parents at home. I can't just tell the kid at the office, "Brush your teeth," 'cause if he doesn't see his parents doing it at home, he won't do it, but if his parents are doing it he's doing it. And I think it's similar to here, if you're praying, if you're reading the Scriptures, or if you're doing righteous things, if you're being honest, if you have integrity, your children will see that, so there's nature and nurture there, so there's a little bit of both I'm sure.
0:08:16 TH: That is such a great example. I really like that. And you've seen that with your own son, right? Adam in primary, I loved him, but yeah, he was a 10-year-old boy.
0:08:26 BB: Yes.
0:08:27 TH: And you look at him, he is the greatest kid.
0:08:30 BB: He's a good kid. He's a boy, you didn't know if he was paying attention. Even now, he's 16, sometimes you don't think he's paying attention, whether we're doing Scripture study or whatever, and you hope it sinks in. And there's times later, or it might be a church or other places, and you know what did sink in.
0:08:48 TH: Now tell me why you're getting emotional.
0:08:50 BB: I'm not. [laughter]
0:08:51 TH: Oh. Are you sure?
0:08:52 RB: Are you sure?
0:08:53 BB: Yeah.
0:08:54 TH: You look it.
0:08:55 BB: I'm always looking like that.
0:08:58 TH: Why does that make you emotional though?
0:09:01 BB: Well, it's good to see your son do what's right.
0:09:06 TH: It really is. And we have this experience here with this young 10-year-old boy Mormon, he doesn't know what's going on, and he is living a really difficult time. And talk about tough, go to Mormon 1:6-8, his dad packs everything up and says, "We're moving." That's gotta be tough. He's gonna leave his friends and everything he's familiar with and knows, and his dad's taking him to the land of Zarahemla. And I really appreciate this because remember, he's re-telling the story, but he's remembering it through the eyes of a 10-year-old boy. And I love the word he uses to describe how many people were there in verse 7. Brent, will you read verse 7?
0:09:43 BB: "The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings and the people were as numerous as almost as it were the sand of the sea."
0:09:50 TH: I think that's just great. It's like a kid's way of saying, "There's like a gazillion people," just the sand of the sea, so many people there. So here are some other things about Mormon. Go to Mormon chapter 1:15 and highlight this one because sober and quick to observe, and as a result we have verse 15, and Rochelle, will you read that for us?
0:10:08 RB: "And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus."
0:10:19 TH: And then in Mormon chapter 2:2, we'll get there later, but he becomes a general at age 16. I mean...
0:10:24 BB: Right.
0:10:25 TH: What?
0:10:27 BB: What I thought there is the world of that time is wicked, they're not being good, and they saw the goodness in him, so they wanted him to lead 'em 'cause they knew he had something they didn't.
0:10:40 TH: Well, and Brent, I really like that you said they saw the goodness in him, because the name Mormon, according to Joseph Smith means "more good", it's an Egyptian term.
0:10:48 BB: Interesting.
0:10:48 TH: Then lastly what I like about Mormon is Mormon chapter 6:11, and look at that verse. And the only reason I have us go there is because one of the things that we can learn is that Mormon was a dad, and in Mormon chapter 6:11 it tells us his son's named Moroni. And so Brent, I just thought of you, because here's what I wanna know, I wanna know your thoughts about being a dad, because here's Mormon, right? And Mormon is being raised in this scary destructive time as a young boy, well physically and spiritually, and then he's going to raise his son Moroni in an even worse case scenario. Just terrible, terrible time. So I wanna know what is it like being a dad during these turbulent times? 'Cause I think a lot of this that we're reading is like our day.
0:11:30 BB: I think as any parent you want to raise your kids both physically and spiritually, so you want to prepare them so they can handle the things of life, whatever they might be, 'cause it's hard to handle what's coming at you, especially if when things are wicked. And we have that around us right now, there are so many things around us nowadays that are wicked, that are easy to follow one path or another that take our attention. I don't know if you've heard the talk by Lawrence Corbridge, "Stand Forever". He talks about all the things out there, things that take our time whether they're hobbies that take us from things that matter most, reading our Scriptures or other things. And so, I think our ability to gain testimonies is diminished by things that don't seem bad, but are taking our time.
0:12:15 TH: Great, thank you for sharing those thoughts, I appreciate that. That was great. So while they're in Zarahemla, let's go back to that verse where Mormon then gets moved as a young boy. His dad takes him and they moved to Zarahemla. So we have 11-year-old Mormon, and he is going to witness a war while he's there between the Nephites and the Lamanites. And the Nephites are gonna prevail in this war, and they're gonna have four years of peace, the Scriptures tell us, but this peace means no more bloodshed with the Lamanites, but in the next segment we're gonna see that it does not equate with spiritual peace.
0:12:55 TH: Before we met, I asked you guys to look in the newspaper or for a headline or anything like that, that you think sums up the world that we live in today. What did you guys find?
0:13:04 BB: I couldn't find one headline that stood out to explain the living today, but all the headlines, everything that has gone on this year 2020, from COVID-19 to earthquakes, to fires, to windstorms, to... It seems like every day I wake up and I'm like, "Okay, what's new today?" You start thinking of the second coming, not that that's here. I mean, you look back at other times in the world and there's been crazy things, but it's been a crazy year.
0:13:32 TH: Yes. Okay, excellent. So we're gonna look at what's going on spiritually for the people, and we're gonna see what the headline would have been at Mormon's time. In Mormon 1:13-14, and as we read those verses let's mark what we think the headline could have been. I will go ahead and read those so that Brent and Rochelle, you can just mark up your Scriptures. Here we go. "But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people, and there were no gifts from the Lord, and the Holy Ghost did not come upon any because of their wickedness and unbelief." What did you mark?
0:14:14 BB: The thing that sticks out of course is, "the Lord did take away his beloved disciples," and that I understand are the three Nephites.
0:14:23 TH: They absolutely are. That's a scary headline.
0:14:25 BB: That is a scary headline.
0:14:28 RB: "No more miracles, no more healing, and no more Holy Ghost."
0:14:35 TH: Yeah.
0:14:35 RB: That's tragic. And nothing more tragic.
0:14:38 TH: Right. And in verse 15, mark the word that says, "there were no gifts." We're gonna do a cross-reference with that. And we talked about this last week when our guest Kerri, she asked what that phrase "heavenly gifts" meant. Cross-reference the verse in Mormon to 4 Nephi 1:5. And let's read those gifts. Rochelle, will you read them for us?
0:15:00 RB: "And there were great and marvelous works wrought by the disciples of Jesus, insomuch that they did heal the sick and raised the dead, and caused the lame to walk and the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear; and all manner of miracles did they work among the children of men; and in nothing did they work miracles save it were in the name of Jesus."
0:15:20 TH: So of those gifts and then the things that you mentioned, Rochelle, that the Holy Ghost was gone, and the three Nephites, Brent, that you talked about, I'm just curious to know which would be the most difficult gift for you to lose, and why?
0:15:33 RB: The Holy Ghost. That's how the Lord speaks to us, that's how we get direction, that's how we get comfort, that's I think everything about it, that'd be hard to not have.
0:15:45 TH: Yeah.
0:15:46 BB: Yeah. They're a member of the Godhead, and to lose that you lose the Godhead and everything else that is associated with it.
0:15:52 TH: Yeah, you lose everything, isn't it?
0:15:54 BB: Yeah.
0:15:55 TH: And they did, they lost it. So let's look at the reason why the Lord took away the three Nephites and why the Lord took away the gifts. And Brent, will you please read Mormon 1:19? Let's all mark what stands out to us, why did the Lord do this? So go ahead, Brent.
0:16:12 BB: "And it came to pass that there were sorceries and witchcrafts and magics, and the power of the evil one was wrought upon all the face of the land, even into the fulfilling of all the words of Abinadi, and also Samuel the Lamanite."
0:16:25 TH: And then Rochelle, will you please read chapter 2:8? And they'll give us a reason in here why he allowed this to happen.
0:16:32 RB: "But behold, the land was filled with robbers and with Lamanites; and notwithstanding the great destruction which hung over my people, they did not repent of their evil doings; therefore there was blood and carnage spread throughout all the face of the land, both on the part of the Nephites and also on the part of the Lamanites; and it was one complete revolution throughout all the face of the land."
0:16:53 TH: So what is it? What did you mark? What are the reasons why the Lord took away the gifts and the three Nephites, and the Holy Ghost?
0:17:01 BB: "The power of the evil one was wrought upon all the face of the land."
0:17:06 TH: Right.
0:17:06 BB: I mean that, that is the scary one.
0:17:08 TH: Yeah. And for me, in verse 8, when I got to that part where it says, "They did not repent." We talked a lot about this, and we know this seems to be the theme of the Book of Mormon, the people who, they just won't repent, and the prophets keeps saying to repent. I have marked right there, they did not repent, and this is what I wrote in my Scriptures because when I read this by Hugh Nibley, it struck me because this is just such a short quote, but it changed the way that I look at personal repentance. Rochelle, will you please read this?
0:17:36 RB: "This is very dangerous, if we go on thinking we don't have to repent because other people are wicked."
0:17:43 TH: The Nephites were like, "We don't need to repent 'cause we're not the bad guys. The Lamanites are the bad guys, we're fine, we're fine." And so they got caught in this trap, and I was thinking like, "How are we like the Nephites in that aspect?"
0:17:57 RB: Sometimes we think, "Well, it's not that bad, I'm not... " [chuckle] There's always somebody worse than me.
0:18:06 BB: Yeah. We get in trouble by comparing yourself, and you should compare yourself against yourself, right?
0:18:11 TH: Yeah. I always call it the "compare and despair".
0:18:14 BB: Yeah. And comparison isn't just, "Oh, what they have or what I don't have. Or they look better than I do," or whatever. It's like that, it's righteousness, right?
0:18:24 TH: Yeah, absolutely. So we have these people who not only did they not repent, they didn't think they needed to, and as a result, this world that they're living in is so wicked. This is just crazy to me. So let me ask you this, how has what is going on in the world affected how you view repentance?
0:18:42 RB: Just in recent years, I've just felt more of an understanding how important it is to daily repent, and it doesn't have to be a huge issue, but these people were not willing to repent. They didn't recognize that they were bad or bad enough. And I think that's easy for us because we're trying to do the best we can, so we're not that bad, but we still have the need to constantly repent.
0:19:07 BB: A few weeks ago where you made a goal to ask for repentance, forgiveness every time you prayed, that stuck out of my mind, so that's been a goal of mine, and it changes your life.
0:19:18 TH: How has it changed your life?
0:19:22 BB: You think about things, 'cause every day you don't think, "Oh, I need to repent for this," but if you sit down and pray about it, you're like, "Holy cow, I did do that, and that wasn't right, and I need to do better at that," where you might just shrug it off normally and just go to bed and life goes on. But it gives you a new perspective.
0:19:41 RB: Is that why you're more complimentary? I've noticed that lately.
0:19:45 TH: Oh, so repenting saves your marriage too.
0:19:48 BB: It certainly does.
0:19:54 TH: That's so great.
0:19:54 RB: Really the last couple of weeks, I think you've been more complimentary of different things.
0:19:57 TH: I love that. That is so nice. Everyone out there, repent. How great. I'm gonna start repenting again. I kinda like that schedule so I need to get back, but you're right, it does change us, and I think Tammy would say perfectly, if you repent yourself, you check yourself. So you're always in check of where you are and what's going on in your life. Your life, not anybody else's.
0:20:19 BB: Yeah, I think what I got from these chapters was the need to do that, to ask for forgiveness daily, and then also give thanks. And so that's what I learned from these chapters, that we need to be aware of our lives, everything we have is 'cause of our Father in heaven.
0:20:36 TH: Thank you. Wow, that's great, good stuff. Thank you both for sharing those thoughts. And so Mormon chapter 2 points out... Now, this is interesting, 'cause there's a similarity to Nephi, in Mormon chapter 2 it points out that Mormon was both young and large in stature. Did you notice that?
0:20:51 BB: Yes, it makes you think of the Arnold Free Bird painting, right?
0:20:55 TH: Right. Definitely. Then it says that he was appointed as a general. I mean, hello, over all the armies at such a young age. He's 16, 16 years old. So Mormon will spend his career as both a general and a prophet trying to convince his people to repent. And we will read about that in greater detail in the next segment.
0:21:25 TH: Rochelle and Brent, I have a question for you. Has there ever been a time in your life that you ever felt alone, like so alone?
0:21:34 RB: I immediately thought back to my first year of college. I moved away from home, and I did not know a soul. To come out that loneliness, every morning I had to look in the mirror, go into the bathroom, look in the mirror, and remind myself that I was a daughter of Heavenly Father who loved me.
0:22:00 TH: And how did being alone make you feel? Do you remember a real feeling associated with it?
0:22:05 RB: I just remember it was just... Yeah, maybe a little despair. It was just hard, just a hard... I'd never had to cope with something like that before.
0:22:14 TH: Yeah, that's a great example. Thank you, Rochelle.
0:22:19 BB: Me?
0:22:19 TH: Yeah, you got one?
0:22:20 BB: The first thing I thought of, and you guys will think this is weird, but it was my mission. So I didn't go...
0:22:27 TH: That's not weird. Not at all.
0:22:27 BB: Off to college, right out of high school. My first thing away from the family and into the world was a mission. And going out on a mission, I felt alone, and even though you have great people in the MTC and you got the church surrounding ya and the wards and all that stuff, that's probably the time I felt alone. And just trying to figure out the world, you go to a strange foreign country that's so foreign to you that... So that was a time that in the beginning of my mission, that I felt alone.
0:22:56 TH: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing those, both of you, because I think as people are listening, they're thinking of times that they have felt the most alone. I think it's a universal feeling, everyone at some point in their life feels, I think, alone. And that's what Mormon felt in chapter 2. In fact, Elder Holland calls this part of the Book of Mormon, "one of the loneliest scenes in Scripture history." So I'm gonna try and get through chapter 2 and... Well, the next three chapters without crying because they're so sad. So let's go into Mormon chapter 2. He has just surveyed all the casualties of his people and the wickedness that got them to this point of destruction. Remember hindsight, he's telling, this is what I remember, and now all these people are destroyed, and then he gives some hope or at least he thinks, things are hopeful in Mormon 2:10-13. Let's go there and Rochelle, will you please read Mormon 10:10, 11, 12 and 13?
0:23:53 RB: "And it came to pass that the Nephites began to repent of their iniquity, and began to cry even as had been prophesied by Samuel the prophet; for behold no man could keep that which was his own, for the thieves, and the robbers, and the murderers, and the magic art, and the witchcraft which was in the land. Thus there began to be a mourning and a lamentation in all the land because of these things, and more especially among the people of Nephi. And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation and their mourning and their sorrow before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering of the Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them that they would again become a righteous people."
0:24:33 TH: Why is he thinking he's hopeful right now? What are the people doing?
0:24:37 RB: They're recognizing it's rough.
0:24:40 TH: Yeah, and Mormon's so excited 'cause he think it's working. My words are working. Okay, we have to set that up. So now that we can go into verse 13, so go ahead Rochelle.
0:24:50 RB: "But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin."
0:25:04 TH: Underline sorrowing of the damned. Let's talk about that for a second, specifically that were damned. There's two different definitions for the word damned. So, D-A-M, like a dam, that dam means to stop in progression, but the word D-A-M-N means condemned. And so right here, the sorrowing of the condemned is what that means right there. Now, do either of you guys have that verse marked? Did it stand out to you or anything?
0:25:33 BB: So of these six chapters that we read, this section is what affected me the most. He was excited as a prophet that he hoped that these people would repent, but they didn't have godly sorrow, they had worldly sorrow. And it makes me think of when you read the Scriptures, or especially when you watch General Conference, and that they're talking to us and they're saying, "Here, this is what you need to do to improve yourself." And often we listen and we go, "Oh, I hope so and so heard that talk." [chuckle] And that's not how it should be. I should be...
0:26:03 TH: I do that all the time.
0:26:06 RB: Boy, I hope so and so heard that. [laughter]
0:26:08 BB: Yeah.
0:26:08 RB: I'm so glad I'm not the only one.
0:26:12 BB: But in reality, we should hear those things or read those things and go, "What should I do? I should have godly sorrow, I should repent for this and improve myself and not think how others should be improving them."
0:26:24 TH: Okay, first of all, I love that you said that because I'm not even kidding. About two years ago, my best friend said to me, "Did you enjoy conference?" And I'm not even kidding, I truly said, "This might be the first conference that I think was speaking to me." [chuckle] I was being sincere. I'm such a jerk. When I think about those words, I'm like, "Boy, I'm a jerk, I gotta repent."
0:26:44 RB: But it's hard.
0:26:45 TH: It is hard, but I love that you brought those two things up because this is so cool, Orson Pratt actually explains the difference between these two kind of sorrows, so we have to read these two quotes. So Brent, I'm gonna have you read the quote about this sorrow of the damned and then Rochelle, I'm gonna have you read the godly sorrow quote, okay?
0:27:04 BB: There are different kinds of sorrow. Thieves, robbers, murderers, adulterers, etcetera, are frequently sorrowful because they have been detected in the crimes they have committed. They are not sorrowful because they had sinned against God or because they have injured others, but they are sorry because their crimes have been exposed or that they have been prevented from a realization of the happiness which they had anticipated. This is the sorrow of the world, and it is the same nature as a sorrowing of the evil spirits in hell. They are sorry when they fail to accomplish their malicious designs against God and His people. This kind of sorrow worketh death.
0:27:39 TH: Thank you, that's the kind of sorrow they were experiencing. On the opposite side, then here's the godly sorrow. Elder Pratt goes on to say this, go ahead, Rochelle.
0:27:47 RB: This kind of sorrow will lead us to obey every commandment of God. It will make us humble and child-like in our dispositions. It will impart unto us meekness and loneliness of mind, it will cause our hearts to be broken and our spirits to be contrite. It will cause us to watch with great carefulness every word, thought and deed. He will call up our past dealings of mankind and we will feel most anxious to make restitution to all whom we may have in any way injured. These and many other good things are the results of godly sorrow for sin. This is repentance, not in word, but in deed. This is a sorrow with which the heavens are pleased.
0:28:24 TH: Thank you. Brent, that's exactly what you just said. Go to Mormon chapter 2, and we're gonna look at verses 14 and 15. And I'll read these two verses. "And they did not come unto Jesus with broken hearts and contrite spirits, but they did curse God and wish to die. Nevertheless they would struggle with the sword for their lives." I just wondered and thought, is that sword like a metaphor? And I thought of my own life like, what is my sword? And am I using a sword to defend my poor actions? Or is the sword an actual sin that I just can't seem to put down? It just have me thinking a lot about what does that sword mean in here? And is there more to that verse?
0:29:00 TH: And so I want you to highlight that and then let's look at verse 15, what the effects of the struggle will be. In verse 15, it says: "And it came to pass that my sorrow did return unto me again, and I saw that the day of grace was passed with them." Highlight 'day of grace was passed with them.' I don't know of any other place in Scripture that uses this terminology, 'the day of grace was passed with them.' And then he says, "both temporally and spiritually; for I saw thousands of them hewn down in open rebellion against their God, and heaped up as dung upon the face of the land. And thus three hundred and forty and four years had passed away." And so we have to read this quote by Elder Holland, and here's what he had to say about this specific phrase that the day of grace has passed. Rochelle, can you read this quote for us?
0:29:47 RB: "In perhaps the most chilling line he ever wrote, Mormon asserted simply, 'I saw that the day of grace was passed with them, both temporally and spiritually.' His people had learned that most fateful of all lessons-that the Spirit of God will not always strive with man; that it is possible, collectively as well as individually, to have time run out. The day of repentance can pass, and it had passed for the Nephites. Their numbers were being 'hewn down in open rebellion against their God,' and in a metaphor almost too vivid in its moral commentary, they were being 'heaped up as dung upon the face of the land.'"
0:30:28 BB: That quote is amazing to think about that. I think the words used in that that your day of grace can pass, it's just like when you're a teenager and you don't think you could ever get hurt or die, and then as you get older, you find out, "Yeah, if I do this, I could get hurt." Adults, we don't do some of the dumb things we might have done when we were kids, but then to use, "their bodies were heaped up like dung on the face of the land," verbally, that just gives you a visual that you're like, "Man, we've got to repent, we can't just live our lives thinking that we'll live forever, not have problems, that this will never end or that our chance will pass."
0:31:06 RB: It makes me think of, we can't procrastinate the day of our repentant.
0:31:11 TH: Yup. In fact, let's cross reference that verse with Alma 34:33 and 34, specifically verse 33. I love this, it says: "And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold," here's what I love, "if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed." That's the day of grace. "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." It just gives me chills.
0:32:00 BB: I have a thought about that. We think, "Okay, tomorrow's another day." We go on and we don't know if tomorrow, if you have a heart attack and die, or if someone hits you in a car and kills you. And it isn't that an end of your time, and your time's up and your time of repentance is passed? So when you talk about that grace, we're thankful every day that we're alive, but you don't know what could happen tomorrow. Even I talk about our youth and how they think they're invincible, but we also are that way too, where we don't realize that our day of grace could be passed tomorrow, who knows what holds for us tomorrow.
0:32:35 TH: Oh, I like that. Excellent, thank you, Brent. Thank you, both of you for sharing. That was good. That was good. So we just got done studying about how this day of grace had passed because they cut themselves off from the Spirit of the Lord because of their willful rebelliousness. I can't even imagine. Well, actually, maybe I could, I mean, these people would just not repent, so as a result, Mormon does something so unique, and we're gonna read about that in the next segment.
0:33:03 TH: Now we're in Mormon chapter 3, and I'm gonna give you just a quick little summary before we dig into this. Okay, here's what we need to know: We are in the 346th year that the Lamanites they come to war. And when this happens, Moroni comes to the people in Mormon 2:23 and 24, it's so great. He gives this really incredible speech saying, "You need to fight for your wives and your children and your houses and your homes." It's very reminiscent of Captain Moroni's speech. And he does this, and they go and fight and they win, but it's not in the strength of the Lord, it's in their own strength, and so Mormon sat.
0:33:38 TH: Then in the 350th year, a treaty's made between the Nephites, the Lamanites and Gadianton robbers, and then there's 10 years of peace, and at the end of the 10 years, the Lord comes to Mormon and says, "You need to cry unto the people and tell them to repent because they are so hard-hearted and they're taking all the glory in these wins." And so he does it, but it doesn't work, and then they go in and have another battle in Mormon 3:7, and then they have another one in Mormon 3:8, and this battle they win, and they think it is so great. Look at their reaction to their win. Let's go into Mormon chapter 3, and we're gonna read verses 9 and 10. And Brent, will you read those for us?
0:34:14 BB: "And now, because of this great thing which my people, the Nephites, had done, they began to boast in their own strength and began to swear before the heavens that they would avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren who had been slain by their enemies. And they did swear by the heavens and also by the throne of God, that they would go up to battle against their enemies and would cut them off from the face of the land."
0:34:35 TH: Now, let's read Mormon's reaction to his people so mark verses 11 and 12, and Rochelle, will you read those verses for us? And after we're done reading these, I want you to tell me what these verses tell us about Mormon.
0:34:45 RB: "And it came to pass that I, Mormon, did utterly refuse from this time forth, to be a commander and a leader of this people, because of their wickedness and abomination. Behold, I had led them, notwithstanding their wickedness, I had led them many times to battle, and had loved them, according to the love of God which was in me, with all my heart; And my soul had been poured out in prayer unto my God all the day long, for them; nevertheless, it was without faith, because of the hardness of their hearts."
0:35:11 TH: What do these verses tell us about Mormon?
0:35:14 RB: I totally had marked this all out because how could he even write about all this tragedy? He had the love of God. He loved them so much. He loved them like God loved these people. He didn't wanna give up. He didn't give up easily. His whole life was devoted to these people and leading them, even though they were so wicked, then I like he's like, "I utterly refuse to do this anymore, I'm done."
0:35:38 TH: Yeah. I'm out.
0:35:41 RB: I think they're just like, "We're done."
0:35:42 TH: Rochelle, can I just thank you for marking up those verses and for sharing that with us? That was great. So he's done being their leader, and I look at these verses, and Brent, will you read 14 through 16?
0:35:52 BB: "And when they had sworn by all that had been forbidden them, by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they would go up unto their enemies to battle, and avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren, behold, the voice of the Lord came unto me, saying, Vengeance is mine, and I will repay; and because this people repented not after I had delivered them, behold, they shall be cut off from the face of the earth. And it came to pass that I utterly refused to go up against mine enemies; and I did even as the Lord had commanded me; and I did stand as an idle witness to manifest unto the world the things which I saw and heard, according to the manifestations of the Spirit which had testified of things to come."
0:36:28 TH: Highlight the word idle in verse 16. This word means unused. I thought that was interesting. It changed the way I read that verse, 'cause I had idle, and I was like, "Oh, so he just kinda didn't do much." That's what I thought of. He's just kind of hanging out. But it's more powerful when it said, "And I did stand as an unused witness."
0:36:47 RB: So Mormon isn't leading, he can't lead anymore, and he can't preach anymore, and he's an idle witness, but he still needs to keep the record.
0:37:00 BB: Look at the next few verses though, so he is talking... He has just compiled the Book of Mormon, who cares about the people there? They're gone.
0:37:08 RB: Yes, perfect!
0:37:10 BB: He's gone. Okay, you guys, coming out, the Book of Mormon is coming in the future, and this is what you guys need to know. So the next verses tell the story.
0:37:20 TH: Read it Brent, go for it. This is the answer, this is the so what, here we go, I love... That was perfect, hit it.
0:37:25 BB: "So therefore I write unto you, Gentiles, and also unto you, house of Israel, when the work shall commence, that ye shall be about to prepare to return to the land of your inheritance; Yea, behold, I write unto all the ends of the earth; yea, unto you, twelve tribes of Israel, who shall be judged according to your works by the twelve whom Jesus chose to be his disciples in the land of Jerusalem. And I write also unto the remnant of this people, who shall also be judged by the twelve whom Jesus chose in this land; and they shall be judged by the other twelve whom Jesus chose in the land of Jerusalem. And these things doth the Spirit manifest unto me; therefore I write unto all. And for this cause I write unto you, that ye may know that ye must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ; yea, every soul who belongs to the whole human family of Adam; And ye must stand to be judged of your works, whether they be good or evil."
0:38:15 TH: Yes, it's almost like a mic drop right there.
0:38:17 BB: Yeah.
0:38:18 TH: So verse 18 and 19, if you read that and you're like, "Wait, what?" We believe that. So we do believe that the 12 apostles from Jerusalem will judge the 12 tribes, and that the 12 apostles chosen in America will also be judges at the judgment day, and I'll put these references in the show notes so you can go ahead and read that, but I think that's just interesting. We do believe that. And then verse 20, this is it. Brent, will you please read that one more time?
0:38:44 BB: "And these things doth the Spirit manifest unto me; therefore I write unto you all. And for this cause I write unto you, that ye may know that ye must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ; yea, every soul who belongs to the whole human family of Adam; And ye must stand to be judged of your works, whether they be good or evil."
0:39:03 TH: Okay, in verse 20, highlight 'the judgment seat of Christ.' We have to talk about what exactly that is. The judgment seat of Christ, here's what you need to know about it. This is a Greek word, and the Greek word is bema, B-E-M-A, and what it means is, it's a platform to which someone would walk up and receive judgment figuratively, but also literally, and it was given from a tribunal chair or a throne where rewards and punishments were meted out. So we will come to the judgment seat of Christ, a throne or a platform like this idea that God is sitting there, Christ is at his side, we're being judged, but the judgment word can sometimes be misleading. Usually, the meaning to us in the world we live in today, it means to pass a sentence to determine innocence or guilt, and I thought of that 'cause I always say this, I watch a lot of Law & Order, guilty, innocent, what are we talking about here? But when we read it in this context, a scriptural context, it's a little bit different. So what it means here is that it's a time of reward as well as a time of accountability for the acts and the morals of our life, a time of reward and accountability as opposed to being guilty or innocent.
0:40:10 BB: Right. Well, it makes you think of President Oaks' talk, and he's been quoted also on this, that our life in the end, at the judgment, isn't a sum of all the good and evil things we've done, but of what we have become.
0:40:24 TH: Brent, that is excellent and for... Hey, anyone who wants to read that talk, it is called, The Challenge to Become. I highly recommend it, it's so good. Now, Elder Holland, he also has something to say about this, and I'd like to know what stands out to you after you read this. Rochelle, will you read this quote for us?
0:40:38 RB: "If you have made covenants, keep them. If you haven't made them, make them. If you have made them and broken them, repent and repair them. It is never too late so long as the Master says there is time. Please, listen to the proclamation of the Holy Spirit, telling you right now, this very moment that you should accept the atoning gift of the Lord Jesus Christ and enjoy the fellowship of his labor. Don't delay, it's getting late." Cool.
0:41:07 BB: Yeah.
0:41:08 TH: That kinda gives you chills a little bit, and it's interesting 'cause Elder Holland's words, they perfectly mirror the words of Mormon in Mormon 3:22. Let's read that verse, the last verse of this chapter, and Rochelle, read verse 22.
0:41:21 RB: "And I would that I could persuade all ye ends of the earth to repent and prepare to stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
0:41:27 TH: Ain't that great? And so here we have this instruction and it's a warning and it's also a foreshadowing for the horrific scene that we're gonna study in Mormon chapter 4, and we're gonna study that in the next segment.
0:41:49 TH: For this one, here's what I wanted you to do, and I didn't prep you guys with this so I really hope this works. In Mormon chapter 4, I just want you to tell me what you marked because this, to me, was the most horrific of all the chapters.
0:42:01 RB: Okay, in verse 4, they had gone up to the Lamanites. They set themselves up that they were gonna be trashed again. [chuckle]
0:42:10 TH: Yeah, in fact, look at verse 5, that's exactly what you said. Verse 5 says, "But behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked, and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished." Verse 11, 'cause this struck me when Mormon says this. Rochelle, read that.
0:42:25 RB: "And it is impossible for the tongue to describe or for man to write a perfect description of the horrible scene of the blood and carnage which was among the people, both of the Nephites and of the Lamanites, and every heart was hardened so that they delighted in the shedding of blood continually.” Yuck, yuck. That's so awful.
0:42:44 BB: Yeah, this is a tough chapter, there's just a lot of bad stuff. Back there, again, sacrificing women and children. Both times that's mentioned in this section is just sickening. The very last verse, Mormon's going, "Holy cow, we're about done. I better go hide the records." That's probably the biggest thing that sticks out to me.
0:43:02 RB: Well, before you get to that verse 12, it says there was more wickedness than ever before seen in the Book of Mormon.
0:43:08 TH: Oh, right?
0:43:09 RB: The most wickedness they'd ever seen. I'm like, "Okay, it's almost been a thousand years, and in that time, this is the most wicked. That's awful, 'cause there's been a lot of wickedness coming up to this point.
0:43:21 TH: And we have to remember the Book of Mormon's done. If there's not continuation, this is it. What Mormon is telling us is the last thing he sees, then he gives it to his son, Moroni writes a few things and the Book of Mormon's over. And Brent, you brought this up, it's in verse 14, and then again, they say it in verse 21, but just highlight that or mark it 'cause it just makes you sick to think that it says, "And they did also march forward against the city of Teancum and did drive the inhabitants forth out of her and did take many prisoners, both women and children, and did offer them up as sacrifices unto their idol gods." And I don't know why, it just played over in my mind over the past couple of days, and it struck me 'cause I thought, "Is this our day?" In a weird way, our children being offered up as sacrifices. All of this talk in Mormon chapter 4, we needed to talk about that because it gives purpose and power behind Mormon's words in Mormon 5:2. So let's go there and read verse 2, and Rochelle, will you read that for us, please?
0:44:24 RB: "But behold, I was without hope, for I knew the judgments of the Lord which should come upon them; for they repented not of their iniquities, but did struggle for their lives without calling upon that Being who created them."
0:44:35 TH: What is so gripping about that verse?
0:44:38 RB: It didn't have hope.
0:44:40 TH: Oh!
0:44:40 BB: That's been, again, through this, he can't pray with faith 'cause he's lost his hope. He's taken away the 3 Nephites, the Holy Ghost has left them. You asked us the question earlier, when have we felt alone? I can't imagine being Mormon and Moroni at this time, you don't have the church or your family necessarily to rely on. You're in despair.
0:45:00 TH: That is complete despair. That's a great word to describe that, complete and utter despair. And so, as a result, these people are continuing to battle and continuing to fight, and I just had to laugh a little bit about this in verse 7 'cause I do like to liken the Scriptures unto myself and so I read verse 7, and I wrote next to the verse, I would die, 'cause Rochelle, you would live, you're a runner so I'm just gonna read verse 7 that says.
0:45:24 BB: Oh, yeah. This one has been done.
0:45:26 TH: And in the past that we did again, take to flight and those whose flight was swifter than the Lamanites did escape, and those whose flight did not exceed the Lamanites were swept down and destroyed, I'm dead. I truly could not run to my own life in this scenario and I thought, "Oh, Rochelle would 'cause you are a runner," so I'd be dead anyway, but that's about this, people are literally running for their lives.
0:45:48 RB: You know what I thought about that too, is, so they were all bad and running to survive, but I also thought in likening the scriptures to myself, "Am I running to do what's right? Am I running to repent? Do I take action quick enough to do the right thing? Or do I hem and haw and jog and just kinda, I'm on my way, but maybe not fast enough." So, swift, the fast that that made an impression on me.
0:46:18 TH: I'm so glad you shared that. That is great.
0:46:19 BB: That's good.
0:46:21 TH: And so all of this leads us up to when we're talking about all these verses and the fighting, and then we come to verse 11, Mormon is so sad for his people, and now he's gonna teach us a powerful lesson about repenting and about calling upon the Being who created them. He's saying they weren't even doing that, and as a result, here's what's happening in verse 11. So Brent, will you read Mormon 5:11?
0:46:44 RB: "For I know that such will sorrow for the calamity of the house of Israel; yea, they will sorrow for the destruction of this people; they will sorrow that this people had not repented that they might have been clasped in the arms of Jesus."
0:46:57 TH: Let's highlight that at the end, "that they might not have been clasped in the arms of Jesus." We've talked throughout this year on the podcast about the Hebrew word for atonement, which is kaphar, which means to cover, and when you think about all that the atonement of Jesus Christ does for us, it covers us, and there's beauty in that. But what's so interesting is that the Hebrew word for atonement, which is kaphar, is closely related to an Aramaic and Arabic word, which is kafat, and kafat means a close embrace. So imagine a big old hug from Christ. Here's what Neil L. Andersen had to say about being clasped. I'll read this quote, this is a good one. "The Lord's desire that we come unto him and be wrapped in his arms is often an invitation to repent. The Scriptures speak of his arms being open, extended, stretched out, and encircling. They are described as mighty and holy arms of mercy, arms of safety, arms of love, "lengthened out all the day long. We have each felt to some extent these spiritual arms around us. We have felt His forgiveness, His love and comfort. The Lord has said, "I am he who comforteth you." So I have a question, Rochelle and Brent, when have you felt clasped in the arms of Jesus?
0:48:12 RB: So when you sent the question to us yesterday, I was at the hospital with my mother-in-law. Yesterday, we were waiting for some answers on things and then my niece sent a message. I can't even read it to Brent last night, I needed Brent to read it on the phone, I said, "I can't read it." The message was, "Heavenly Father was watching out for her, even though she might feel abandoned at this time." As I read that I felt the love of Heavenly Father and I felt arms clasped around us, around my mother-in-law, around me, and it was my niece that reminded us, we won't be abandoned. My niece was insightful, and she's like, "The suffering is how we become exactly what he needs us to be." We just felt clasped in the arms of Jesus at the moment.
0:49:06 TH: That was a beautiful example of being clasped. Thank you for sharing that, Rochelle. That was great, I appreciate that.
0:49:11 BB: So when I was a senior in high school, I have a sister that's eight years older than me, and she had been married, nine months pregnant for her fourth, and she had a brain aneurysm and died. Right after that, you talk about the Comforter and being clasped in the arms of Jesus. We felt that then, and you look at it now and you know that passing on to the next world is just another step in the whole process of our lives. Whenever I read or say the plan of redemption, the plan of salvation, I can feel in my heart that's true. So when I think of times that I felt that, that was probably the biggest time I felt that is when my sister passed away, and knowing that there's life after this death and the things that were taught are true, then that makes meaning to all this stuff that we talk about and learn about and understand. And it makes me think of President Nelson when he was on the plane that was going to crash and he was calm, 'cause he knew that things would be okay. And there's a lady next to him that was just screaming her lungs out, and they corrected the plane and then everything worked out okay. I just hope that when I get to that stage in my life, I'll be calm 'cause I know that these things are true.
0:50:42 TH: Wow, thank you. Thank you both of you for sharing those experiences, and as you shared them, the Spirit witnessed that what you said it was true for both of you, and to those listening, know that they can be clasped in the arms of Jesus. And I couldn't help but think as both of you were talking though, I absolutely unequivocally believe you are both a perfect example of Mormon 5:18 because we can't leave Mormon chapter 5 without looking at this verse. It was one of the things that Mormon was worried about with these people, and there's a quote that goes along with this verse that describes you. Let's just read verse 18. Okay, and let me just preface this by saying, as I read this verse, you're not the beginning of the verse, you're the meat of the verse, the power of it so listen for it. You'll hear it when I read it. "But now, behold, they are led about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind, or as a vessel is tossed upon the waves, without sail or anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her and even as she is, so are they."
0:51:40 TH: And I thought, you both have a sail and an anchor. You've always been that way. In the 15 years I've known you. Brent, can you read this quote by Elder Renlund, please?
0:51:50 BB: "Without Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and Their influence in our lives, we have no shepherd. Without Them, there is no sail-meaning there is no power. Without Them, there is no anchor-meaning there is no stability, especially in times of storm. Without Them, there is nothing with which to steer-meaning there is no direction."
0:52:09 TH: Thank you, and your stories beautifully exemplify that Jesus Christ, the Heavenly Father, they are your anchor, they are your sail and they have gotten you through everything in your life, and I think that it testifies to all of us that when we go to our Father in prayer and when we repent and do everything, we have power, we have stability, and we will be clasped in the arms of Jesus and I think there's so much beauty in that, so thank you for sharing what you did. So the people of Mormon were ultimately without Heavenly Father and Christ, and because they lost all of these things, in the next segment, we're gonna read Mormon's haunting description of his people, and we're gonna study his famous anguish-filled prayer.
0:53:00 TH: So here's what's happening going into Mormon chapter 6, the Lamanites and the Nephites are gathered in at the land of Cumorah for a big battle, and Mormon, he is growing old and he knew that this would be his last struggle of his people. That's what he says in verse 6. So He entrusted a few of the sacred records to his son Moroni and then he hid the rest of the records in Hill Cumorah. Now, Mormon recorded what he witnessed of the final destruction of his people. So let's read what he wrote, and when we're done, I want you guys to tell me how you think he's feeling, and I imagine these verses like a scene in a movie. Picture in your mind right now, everybody, just a field, maybe a little of a dew across it or like some fog, and we have marching people. Anyway, just think of a movie when you read this. So Brent, start with us in verse 7, and we're gonna read verses 7 through 11, and we'll each take a verse, we'll start... We'll go Brent, Rochelle and then me.
0:53:53 BB: "And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching toward them; And with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them."
0:54:06 RB: "And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, And every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers."
0:54:14 TH: "And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the axe, and with all manner of weapons of war."
0:54:22 BB: "And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me; And I fell wounded in the midst, And they passed by me, that they did not put an end to my life."
0:54:33 RB: "And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people, save it were twenty and four of us, among whom was my son Moroni, And we, having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow-when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps-from the top of the Hill Cumorah the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me."
0:54:55 TH: What do you guys think? What are they feeling or what's he thinking and feeling?
0:54:58 BB: So one of the first things I thought of is in verse 7, where it talks about, "and with that awful fear of death, which fills the breast of all the wicked." When you look at the signs of the second coming, one of those is, men's hearts will fail them.
0:55:14 TH: Oh, yeah.
0:55:15 BB: And that's what I thought when I read that, the awful fear of death. I can't imagine Mormon feels bad for these people because they are wicked, and he knows that their time has passed and that has just to be, I think crushing to Mormon and to the rest of us too.
0:55:32 TH: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
0:55:34 RB: I feel like I recognize it's an abridgment. There's so much more raw emotion, if you will, that could have been included, but I did love where he points out, "You know, my son, Mormon is here," or, "My son Moroni is one of our survivors," and he didn't say this, but I'm thinking, he's probably thinking, "Oh, my goodness. We were preserved. We didn't die." He's like, "I was wounded, but here we are and we have to carry on."
0:56:08 TH: Yeah. When he mentions his son, I'm thinking, "Well, he didn't mention his wife or anyone else," like...
0:56:13 RB: Yeah, I wonder that.
0:56:14 TH: Is his wife dead? Is he so sad, like other family members gone, his parents, just all of these people, and they're all gone, except his son. And here's something else we need to know about this chapter, starting in verse 13, it says, "Him with his ten thousand, and his ten thousand, and his ten thousand." Every time I read this, I'm like, "How did they count that many? Did they... " And how did they all end up with a perfect 10,000? And so it's kind of cool, at the top of my page, I just put this that the number in 10,000 in Hebrew means a number that's too great to actually number, it means a great multitude.
0:56:48 TH: When he says him with his ten thousand, it just means him with his great multitude and him with his great multitude, we can't even number, there are so many. So that's something interesting to know about that number, 10,000 and I like that. Then I was like, "Oh, okay, that makes more sense. I like that." So we have all this destruction, all of this carnage, and so we get some very incredibly poetic verses in what was called Mormon's famous lament, and it starts in Mormon chapter 6, and it's verses 17 through 22. So here's what I wanna do, I just wanna start with the first four words, and I wanna mark those. So Rochelle, will you read the first four words of Mormon 6:17?
0:57:22 RB: "O ye fair ones."
0:57:25 TH: Okay, mark that. And mark the word, fair. This is an important word to study before we can even go on because he will say this often, and here's what we need to know about the word fair. So the name Nfi is an Egyptian name and it is spelled N-F-I, Nfi or Nephi. And in Egyptian, the name Nfi means good, beautiful, fair or pleasant. So when you were called a Nephite and you were called fair or beautiful, it wasn't because your skin was white, it was meaning you were good. If you were a Nephite, you were good, you were pleasant, but what's even cooler, I think, is when you look up the word fair, especially in the 1828 Dictionary, which I love to use, it just depends on your usage of the word fair, 'cause it could be beautiful, it could be wholesome. But I love this, it also means honest, dealing justly, favorable, prosperous, think of all those words. Haven't we used all those words to describe the Nephites at some point in the Book of Mormon?
0:58:22 BB: Oh, yeah.
0:58:23 RB: So also, are you saying, "O ye fair ones," like, "O, you Nephites."
0:58:29 TH: That's exactly who he's talking to.
0:58:32 RB: You are the descendants of this Nfi.
0:58:34 TH: Yes, yes. He's not saying, "Oh, you white skin people."
0:58:36 RB: Okay, that's really cool. That's really cool, sorry.
0:58:38 TH: Yeah, he's saying, "O you Nephites, O you ones that were supposed to be kind and prosperous and nice and honest," and all these good things.
0:58:47 BB: Covenant people.
0:58:48 TH: Yes, exactly. So let's go to 3 Nephi chapter 2, and let's look at verse 16 in light of this word. And Rochelle, will you read verse 16? And this is where we talk about the curse of the Nephites, how it was taken off, it says their skin became white like unto the Nephites, but again, that word white, it's not skin color. And so read verse 16.
0:59:09 RB: "And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites. And thus ended the thirteenth year."
0:59:18 TH: Exceedingly fair, meaning exceedingly good and prosperous and blessed. And in that verse, it says they were called Nephites, and then when we go into 4 Nephi 1:10, let's go there, and one more reference for the word fair. 4 Nephi 1:10. Now remember, now everyone's Nephites, everyone's happy, we're living in such a prosperous time in 4 Nephi. And so look how the word describes these people in 4 Nephi 1:10, and I'll read that. "And now, behold, it came to pass that the people of Nephi did wax strong, and did multiply exceedingly fast, and became an exceedingly fair and delightsome people." You bet they were. They were prosperous. They were favorable. They were good. All of those wonderful things. And now we can go back and read Mormon's words. So go back to Mormon 6:17-22. Rochelle, let's just start. We'll each take a verse 'cause this is so poetic and pretty. So Rochelle... We'll go Rochelle, Brent and then me.
1:00:14 RB: "O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!"
1:00:22 BB: "Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss."
1:00:30 TH: "O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen!"
1:00:38 RB: "But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return."
1:00:43 BB: "And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you."
1:01:03 TH: "O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy."
1:01:15 BB: Wow!
1:01:16 TH: Crazy words right there. So now we're gonna go clear back to the beginning how we started, and we talked about how Mormon's name meant more good. And so maybe just think as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are we "Mormon?" I know we don't go by that name anymore, but are we more good or are we becoming like the people that Mormon is lamenting over? And it made me think of President Nelson's talk back in April of 2020, when he just said, "Hear him." And he paused after he said it. That was his only advice to us, to hear him. And so I just want you to think about that for a second, and I'm just curious to know, Rochelle and Brent, over the last eight months that we've had that conference talk, how have you heard the Lord? Or how are you more good because of it?
1:02:03 BB: I don't know if I'm more good, but sometimes it's like, you might have the phrase, Just do it, something simple that you remember. You're saying like sometimes you listen to the conference and you hear all this stuff, and there's so much over a couple of days of conference that, what do you remember? In fact, I like to listen to conference talks while I'm running, or biking, or driving to work, 'cause I get more out of them after a conference than I did in conference, but to have a simple statement like that to focus on, it gives you that opportunity to think, "Okay, have I heard him today? And what have I done to hear him?" And it makes you think that way, and I think that's probably how you said it and why it's important to us, 'cause it helps us redirect our focus.
1:02:48 TH: It makes you more good, yep.
1:02:50 BB: It makes you more good.
1:02:53 RB: I admit it's been a little bit hard. I've loved it and it's easy, it's easy to remember, and it's easy to ask myself, "Oh, how do I hear him?" And I feel like I've had to question it a lot because the answer doesn't come easy. I know, I hear him at times. I know I want to hear him all the time. It's often after the fact, when I recognize, "Oh, I was totally inspired," but in the moment, I usually don't get that and so I questioned it a lot, "Okay, how am I really hearing him and how am I working to hear him?" Because that's important to me, am I getting distractions away so that I can hear him? So I've had to question it a lot.
1:03:39 BB: That's a good statement to say, sometimes you don't recognize until after like, do miracles still exist and you think about the preparations President Nelson gave us about the Sabbath day a few years ago, about doing, Come, Follow Me and preparedness, and then COVID hits and we're stuck at home, wasn't that in a way a miracle? Wasn't that a sign of God? Wasn't that hearing him right then, that the prophet has prepared us for that? And so sometimes we don't recognize miracles in our lives or hearing him until after the fact, that I think is a common thing, but it's important that we do recognize it when we can.
1:04:18 TH: Yes, thank you. Thank you, both of you. Great thoughts. That is perfect. So for those of you listening, just take a brief moment and if you can right now or just throughout this week, just think about what it is that you can do to become more good, to become fair, O ye fair ones, to become like the Nephite, people that the Lord needed them to be a covenant-keeping people so that you can be clasped in the arms of Jesus. That's the whole point of everything we've talked about today. So thank you, Rochelle. Thank you, Brent. We're done, that's it.
1:04:49 BB: Thank you, woohoo.
1:04:50 RB: Thank you.
1:04:50 TH: Oh, my gosh, that was so fun. Wow, what a great episode. So now we're done. So just think about, what was your takeaway from today? Anything that stands out to you?
1:05:00 BB: I always like when you bring out things like the fair ones and describe that or the 10,000, I get into that.
1:05:08 RB: The Hebrew translations of things, for sure.
1:05:10 BB: Yeah, yeah. A year after my mission, I was the first group in the Jerusalem center. We went to Israel, we studied... I studied Hebrew for about a semester, and I've always liked that kind of stuff so when you bring up those little tidbits, I really like that. And of course, like I said, chapter 2, the part about being godly sorrow or worldly sorrowful, that really sticks out in my mind that when I repent, I should have godly sorrow.
1:05:37 TH: That was great, that was a good discussion.
1:05:40 RB: I think, I never worked on those repentance stuff because a reminder from Mormon, if you would only repent, you would have survived so I think that's for me, just repent.
1:05:56 TH: My takeaway was the discussion on, have you been clasped in the arms of Jesus, and just what you both shared, I really felt the spirit, and I like that. I appreciate when I can have experiences like that, that just confirmed to me that the words and the Scriptures are true, because someone's experienced it and felt it, so thank you both for being willing to share those personal experiences. That was really cool. I love that so thank you. Well, we would love to hear what anyone else's takeaways was from today's episode so if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook, and if you're not following us on Instagram, go there. You guys totally should, 'cause it's such a great place where you can ask questions throughout the week. But I love that when people ask questions and we can talk about things. It's fun to see the Sunday on Monday community come together and answer each other's questions, and I try to answer anything throughout the week, and then every week at the end, usually on a Sunday, we do a post-calling for what your big takeaway was so make sure you comment on the post that relates to this lesson and let me know what you've learned.
1:06:51 TH: And I read every single one of them, I love it so much. There's always one that stands out to me, and I get to do a fun video on Sunday night or Monday morning sharing what stood out to me so make sure you share your takeaways. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because that's where we have the links to all the references that we use today in this episode, as well as a complete transcript of this whole discussion, so go check that out.
1:07:17 TH: The Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS original, and it's brought to you by LDS Living, it's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today are awesome study group participants were Rochelle and Brent Baugh. And you can find out more information about these friends at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and Erika Free, and it is recorded and mixed by Mix at 6 Studios, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom.
1:07:41 TH: Thanks for being here, we'll see you next week, and remember, O ye fair ones that you are God's favorite.
1:07:49 TH: That you do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end, for after this day of life, which is given up... Sorry, let me try it again. Are we more good? Are we becoming like the people that Mormon... Sorry. Are we more good? Or, are we becoming like the people that Moroni is... Sorry. Are we more good? Or are we becoming like the people that Mormon is lamenting over? Where rewards and punishments were meted out. Meted? Meted?
1:08:16 RB: Meted.
1:08:19 TH: Meted, thank you.
1:08:20 RB: Meted.
1:08:25 TH: Where rewards and punishments [laughter] Where rewards and punishments were meted out.