44: "Rend That Veil of Unbelief" (Ether 1–5)

Books Referenced in This Episode:

Verse by Verse, the Book of Mormon, Volume 2: Alma 30–Moroni 10 by Kelly Ogden and Andrew C. Skinner

Teachings of the Book of Mormon, Part 4 by Hugh Nibley

Christ and the New Covenant: The Messianic Message of the Book of Mormon by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland

Eve and the Choice Made in Eden by Beverly Campbell

Segment 1:

Ether: "The word Ether, athira, means 'the one who left a trace, the one who left his mark or left a record.' In all Semitic languages it’s the same, and it means 'to leave a track, to trail somebody.'" (Hugh Nibley, "Semester 4, Lecture 109 Ether 1-2 The Epic Literature of the Book of Ether " Teachings of the Book of Mormon, Deseret Book).

The Who, When, and Where of Ether:

Who:

• Ether 1:1–2: Moroni abridged this book from 24 plates found by Limhi’s spies on an expedition (Mosiah 8:6-17).
•  Ether 15:3–34: The book is named for the prophet Ether, who was the last prophet of the Jaredites and who created a record of their history.
• Ether 15:33: Nephite prophets and record keepers passed the plates of Ether down until they came into Moroni’s possession. Moroni stated that he did not include even “the hundredth part” of the record in his abridgment.

When and Where: 

"The book of Ether is a greatly abridged history . . . of a people that came from the Tower of Babel in the Old World and occupied part of the ancient Americas from approximately 2200 to at least the 500s B.C."(Kelly Ogden, Andrew C. Skinner, Verse by Verse the Book of Mormon Vol. 2, 254).

Ether 1:6–32: The Genealogical Record of Ether

Segment 2:

Introduction to Jared:

33 Which ^aJared came forth with his brother and their families, with some others and their families, from the great tower, at the time the Lord ^bconfounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the ^cface of the earth; and according to the word of the Lord the people were scattered (Ether 1:33).

History of the Tower of Babel

"Early Jewish and Christian traditions reported that Nimrod built the Tower of Babel, referred to as a pagan temple, in an attempt to contact heaven and to make themselves a name (see Gen. 11:4). In other words, Nimrod was proposing that they build a temple to receive the name of God without making eternal covenants and they had a knowledge of covenants.

"Among the Jews, Nimrod’s name has always been a “symbol of rebellion against God and of usurped authority”: he “established false priesthood and false kingship in the earth in imitation of God’s rule and ‘made all men to sin’” (Hugh Nibley, Lehi in the Desert and The World of the Jaredites, Volume 5 of The Collected Works of Hugh Nibley [1980], 156).

"Josephus, an ancient Jewish historian, noted that Nimrod had tried to gain power over the people. Nimrod probably felt this counterfeit temple would add to his control (see Antiquities of the Jews, book 1, chapter 4, paragraph 2).

"The people wanted to build this tower-temple so they would not be 'scattered' (Gen. 11:4). Latter-day revelation ties the sealing power to preventing the earth from being wasted at the Second Coming (see D&C 2:3). One meaning of the word wasted in Joseph Smith’s day was 'destroyed by scattering' (Webster’s Dictionary [1828]).

"Finally, the word Babel in Hebrew meant 'confusion,' but in Babylonian, the meaning was 'gate of God.' Nimrod and his people were building their own temple, their gate to heaven, without divine approval or priesthood keys.

"The Babylonians, an apostate people, had some understanding of temple ordinances and temple purpose, so they constructed an edifice symbolizing to them their connection to God. And using their own contrived ceremonies to imitate true temple worship, they attempted to duplicate the process of preparation for the hereafter.The word Babel in Hebrew is the same word translated elsewhere in the Old Testament as 'Babylon.' Thus, in biblical terms, the people in this story were building Babylon—a city that has come to represent the world or worldliness (seeD&C 1:16)" (Lee Donaldson, V. Dan Rogers, and David Rolph Seely, "The Tower of Babel," Ensign, March 1998).

Introduction to the Brother of Jared:

34 And the ^abrother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not ^bunderstand our words.

35 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon Jared; therefore he did not confound the ^alanguage of Jared; and Jared and his brother were not confounded (Ether 1:34–35).

• Brother of Jared name: Mahonri Moriancumer (see Improvement Era, 8:705).
• Large and mighty: compare with Nephi (1 Nephi 2:16)

Adam and Eve: 

"The Prophet Joseph Smith gave us insights into the grandeur of our first Mother. Zebedee Coltrin remembered that he and Oliver Cowdery had shared a vision with the Prophet. Joseph Smith took Brothers Coltrin and Cowdery by the arm and said, 'Let’s take a walk.' After arriving at a place “where there was some beautiful grass, and grapevines and swamp birch interlaced, President Joseph Smith then said, ‘Let us pray.’

“[They] all three prayed in turn—Joseph, Oliver, and [Zebedee]. Brother Joseph then said, ‘Now brethren, we will see some visions.’

". . . The heavens gradually opened, and [they] saw a golden throne, on a circular foundation, and on the throne sat a man and a woman, having white hair and clothed in white garments. They were the two most beautiful and perfect specimens of mankind [he had] ever [seen]. Joseph said, ‘They are our first parents,’ Adam and Eve.

Adam was a large broad-shouldered man, and Eve, as a woman, was as large in proportion" (Beverly Campbell, "Mother, Matriarch, Mentor," Eve and the Choice Made in Eden).

Quote: “Access to our Creator through our Savior is surely one of the great privileges and blessings of our lives. I have learned from countless personal experiences that great is the power of prayer. No earthly authority can separate us from direct access to our Creator. There can never be a mechanical or electronic failure when we pray. There is no limit on the number of times or how long we can pray each day. There is no quota of how many needs we wish to pray for in each prayer. We do not need to go through secretaries or make an appointment to reach the throne of grace. He is reachable at any time and any place” (Elder James E Faust, "The Lifeline of Prayer," April 2002 general conference).

Segment 3:

What does the brother of Jared pray for?

34 And the ^abrother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not ^bunderstand our words.

35 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon Jared; therefore he did not confound the ^alanguage of Jared; and Jared and his brother were not confounded.

36 Then Jared said unto his brother: Cry again unto the Lord, and it may be that he will turn away his anger from them who are our ^afriends, that he confound not their language.

37 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon their friends and their families also, that they were not confounded.

38 And it came to pass that Jared spake again unto his brother, saying: Go and ^ainquire of the Lord whether he will drive us out of the land, and if he will drive us out of the land, cry unto him whither we shall go. And who knoweth but the Lord will carry us forth into a land which is ^bchoice above all the earth? And if it so be, let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance.

39 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord according to that which had been spoken by the mouth of Jared (Ether 1:34–39).

• Don't confound our language.
• Don't confound our friends' language.
• Do we need to leave and where should we go?

What did God tell the brother of Jared to do?

41 Go to and gather together thy ^aflocks, both male and female, of every kind; and also of the ^bseed of the earth of every kind; and ^cthy ^dfamilies; and also Jared thy brother and his family; and also thy ^efriends and their families, and the friends of Jared and their families (Ether 1:41).

2 And they did also lay snares and catch ^afowls of the air; and they did also prepare a vessel, in which they did carry with them the fish of the waters.

3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them ^aswarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, ^bseeds of every kind (Ether 2:2–3).

6 And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did ^abuild ^bbarges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord (Ether 2:6).

• The Lord had the Jaredites build preparatory barges for when they would cross the ocean.
• "Many waters" included the Caspian Sea: "They had to cross the Caspian, which was a vast sea at that time, twice as large, at least 2,000 miles long. It was huge, and after they'd crossed it, he said they had to keep going. They hadn't arrived yet. So that's the picture we get.” (Hugh Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon Part 4, "Semester 4, Lecture 109 Ether 1-2 The Epic Literature of the Book of Ether," 254).

Why did the Lord chasten the brother of Jared?

14 And it came to pass at the end of four years that the Lord came again unto the brother of Jared, and stood in a cloud and ^atalked with him. And for the space of three hours did the Lord talk with the brother of Jared, and ^bchastened him because he remembered not to ^ccall upon the name of the Lord.

15 And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my ^aSpirit will not always ^bstrive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my ^cthoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land ^dchoice above all other lands (Ether 2:14–15).

Segment 4:

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of ^abarges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the ^binstructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water.

17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly ^atight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.

18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.

21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.

22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?

23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have ^awindows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.

24 For behold, ye shall be as a ^awhale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the ^bwinds have gone forth ^cout of my mouth, and also the ^drains and the floods have I sent forth.

25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea? (Ether 2:16–25).

What did the brother of Jared ask for?

• Light
• Guidance
• Air

How did the Lord steer them?

4 And it came to pass that when they had prepared all manner of ^afood, that thereby they might subsist upon the water, and also food for their flocks and herds, and ^bwhatsoever beast or animal or fowl that they should carry with them—and it came to pass that when they had done all these things they got aboard of their vessels or barges, and set forth into the sea, commending themselves unto the Lord their God.

5 And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a ^afurious wind blow upon the face of the waters, ^btowards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind.

6 And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the wind.

7 And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being ^atight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the ^bark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters (Ether 6:4–7).

What did God tell the brother of Jared to do about light?

25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea? (Ether 2:25).

• How to receive answers to prayers:
• But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ^astudy it out in your ^bmind; then you must ^cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your ^dbosom shall ^eburn within you; therefore, you shall ^ffeel that it is right (Doctrine and Covenants 9:8).

• 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is ^acompelled in all things, the same is a ^bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

  27 Verily I say, men should be ^aanxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

  28 For the power is in them, wherein they are ^aagents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their ^breward (Doctrine and Covenants 58:26–28).

Segment 5:

Background about the Jaredite barges:

• They were built after the manner of Noah (Ether 6:7).
• They were tight like unto a dish (Ether 2:17).
• Holes were cut in the bottom and top of the barges for air (Ether 2:20).
• They were steered by a furious wind toward the promised land (Ether 6:5). 
• There were eight barges (Ether 3:1).
• The barges were lit by 16 clear stones (Ether 3:1).

Where would the brother of Jared had gotten the idea to light the barges with stones?

16 A ^awindow shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it (Genesis 6:16).

• This scripture describes Noah's ark.
• The footnote for window: HEB tsohar; some rabbis believed it was a precious stone that shone in the ark. Ether 2:23 (23–24).

Brother of Jared's prayer for God to light the stones:

2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be ^aangry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are ^bunworthy before thee; because of the ^cfall our ^dnatures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

3 Behold, O Lord, thou hast smitten us because of our iniquity, and hast driven us forth, and for these many years we have been in the wilderness; nevertheless, thou hast been ^amerciful unto us. O Lord, look upon me in pity, and turn away thine anger from this thy people, and suffer not that they shall go forth across this raging deep in darkness; but behold these ^bthings which I have molten out of the rock.

4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all ^apower, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy ^bfinger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have ^clight while we shall cross the sea.

5 Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou art able to show forth great power, which ^alooks small unto the understanding of men (Ether 3:2–5).

The five aspects of the brother of Jared's prayer:

"First, prayer is a humble acknowledgment that God is our Father and that the Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer. Second, it is a sincere confession of sin and transgression and a request for forgiveness. Third, it is recognition that we need help beyond our own ability. Fourth, it is an opportunity to express thanksgiving and gratitude to our Creator. It is important that we frequently say: 'We thank Thee …, ' 'We acknowledge before Thee …, ' 'We are grateful unto Thee …' Fifth, it is a privilege to ask Deity for specific blessings" (Elder James E Faust, "The Lifeline of Prayer," April 2002 general conference).

How did the brother of Jared react when his prayer was answered?

6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the ^aLord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his ^bfinger. And the ^cveil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared ^dfell down before the Lord, for he was struck with ^efear.

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should ^asmite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me ^aflesh and blood; and never has man come before me with ^bsuch exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this? (Ether 3:6–9).

Segment 6:

Quote: Elder Jeffrey R. Holland said that the brother of Jared’s experience with the Savior, “ranks among the greatest moments in recorded history, surely among the greatest moments in recorded faith. It established the brother of Jared among the greatest of God’s prophets forever” (Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Christ and the New Covenant: The Messianic Message of the Book of Mormon, 17).

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should ^asmite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me ^aflesh and blood; and never has man come before me with ^bsuch exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, ^ashow thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: ^aBelievest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and ^acanst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord ^ashowed himself unto him, and said: ^bBecause thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my ^cpresence; therefore I ^dshow myself unto you.

14 Behold, I am he who was ^aprepared from the foundation of the world to ^bredeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the ^cFather and the Son. In me shall all mankind have ^dlife, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my ^esons and my daughters.

15 And never have I ^ashowed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man ^bbelieved in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own ^cimage? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this ^abody, which ye now ^bbehold, is the ^cbody of my ^dspirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh (Ether 3:7–16).

Quote: “Christ was saying to the brother of Jared, ‘Never have I showed myself unto man in this manner, without my volition, driven solely by the faith of the beholder.’ As a rule, prophets are invited into the presence of the Lord, are bidden to enter his presence by him and only with his sanction. The brother of Jared, on the other hand, seems to have thrust himself through the veil, not as an unwelcome guest but perhaps technically as an uninvited one. … Obviously the Lord himself was linking unprecedented faith with this unprecedented vision. If the vision itself was not unique, then it had to be the faith and how the vision was obtained that was so unparalleled. The only way that faith could be so remarkable was its ability to take the prophet, uninvited, where others had been able to go only with God’s bidding” (Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Christ and the New Covenant: The Messianic Message of the Book of Mormon, 23).

18 And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.

19 And because of the ^aknowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the ^bveil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had ^cfaith no longer, for he knew, nothing ^ddoubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could ^anot be kept from within the veil; therefore he ^bsaw Jesus; and he did minister unto him (Ether 3:18–20).

0:00:00 Tammy Uzelac Hall: So this is pretty cool, the word Ether means "the one who left a trace, the one who left his mark or left a record." Now, what I like about this is in all Semitic languages, it's the same. This word means literally to leave a track or to trail somebody.

0:00:15 TH: Now, today we're gonna begin our study of the Book of Ether, and I thought, "Huh, you know, I wonder if today's study of Ether will leave a mark or a trace on my life and on my testimony of Jesus Christ, and then what mark or trace will I leave because of the truths that I've studied in these chapters?" And then after today, I wonder the same for all of us, what will we do with our knowledge of Ether chapters 1-5? I can't wait to get started on these chapters.

0:00:39 TH: Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group. It's a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come Follow Me Lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, I just wanna make sure you know how to use this podcast, so you can listen to it all at once, it's about an hour long, and you can study your scriptures with me throughout the day or something else that I think is really cool about this is that the podcast is broken up into six segments, and each segment is about 10-12 minutes long, and at the end of each segment, you'll hear a little bit of music so that you know that's the end of the segment. So listen for that music, just like our friend Kelly Dawn Wistisen Speth from Wyoming, who is also a seminary teacher, that's how she listens to it. So shoutout to Sister Speth's seminary students and Sister Speth, thanks for listening to the podcast.

0:01:26 TH: Now, another awesome thing about this study group is each week where you joined by two of my friends, and we get to have different perspectives on the scriptures that we're studying, and so today we're joined by KaRyn Lay and Tamu Smith. Hi, friends.

0:01:40 Tamu Smith: Hello.

0:01:41 KaRyn Lay: Hi, hi, hi, hi, hi.

0:01:41 TH: Hi, you guys are regulars and I'm so excited to have you both here. How long have you guys known each other?

0:01:48 KL: I think I met you when I first started working at Deseret Book so it would have been eight years ago. So just like Tamu and Tammy have traveled together, Tamu and I have traveled together, and my very favorite story of Tamu traveling is when we got stuck at an airport in Canada. She's laughing 'cause she knows this is coming, because one of the people we were traveling with had the same name as a convicted felon who was trying to get out of the country, and so they pulled him aside into security and we were like, "Where did Steven go?" And then the next thing you know, Tamu is running around the airport like a prayer warrior, telling everybody they gotta get home, pray for Steven.

0:02:36 TS: As soon as I've said, "Everybody, we have to pray right now, stop doing what you're doing. Let's pray." Five minutes later, he came out, he was smiling, we were stressed, me and KaRyn, and we were like, "What is taking them so long?" And I was like, "Everybody needs to pray right now."

0:02:52 KL: But the thing that I love about Tamu is that she wasn't just saying it to say it, she is somebody who truly believes that if we unite in prayer, that that man who is in the back of the security in Canada being mistaken for a serial killer will be released, and I just love that about her.

0:03:11 TH: It's true 'cause when I was stuck in Pennsylvania with Tamu, I'd never traveled with her, and she kept saying, "We gotta pray. We gotta pray that we're gonna make it home," and I'm sitting there, I'm like, "I'm sure we'll be fine. I don't know what we gotta pray about, we'll just get home tomorrow." And Tamu's like, "No, no, no." And she was saying it loud and people were looking at her like...

0:03:26 TS: There's a lot of moving parts.

[laughter]

0:03:31 TH: It was so fantastic, I totally agree. That is Tamu. And Tamu loves Jesus so. Tamu, does your shirt say, "Not today, Satan"?

0:03:38 TS: Yes, yes.

0:03:40 TH: I love that, 'cause Jim has a shirt, he wants to make this as "Not Today, Satan but I'm free on Friday." [chuckle]

0:03:48 TS: That's how I feel in my life right now. 'Cause you could do it on Friday, but then get ready for church on Sunday, on Saturday.

0:03:55 TH: Not today but I'm free on Tuesday, whatever day of the week. That's awesome. Well, and something cool about our guest too is Ms. KaRyn Lay, she is the host of This is the Gospel, which Season 3 is debuting right now, so go and find that podcast and listen. So if you wanna learn more about my guests and see cute pictures of my friends, go and find them in our show notes at lds.living.com/sundayonmonday, and in our show notes we'll also put a link to the podcast so you can go straight to This is the Gospel and start listening.

0:04:24 TH: Okay, you guys, the chapters we're gonna be studying today, they detail the blessings that came to the Jaredite colony as a result of the faith and prayers of one man, and as we study and discuss Ether chapters 1-5, we're gonna evaluate our own prayers and hopefully by the end, we're gonna look forward to the blessings that come through exercising our faith on the Lord, and I could not be more excited about these chapters. So friends, grab your scriptures and let's dig in. What I wanna start out with first is a quick background on the Book of Ether, so go to that page in your Book of Mormon. First of all, who wrote the Book of Ether? Okay, according to Ether 1:1-2, Moroni abridged this book from 24 plates that were found by Limhi spies on an expedition. So we studied this story a long time ago, but the cross references are Mosiah 8:6-17. And so, this is where the good news is found out that these plates were found and that King Mosiah is gonna translate them.

0:05:17 TH: And you can cross-reference also Mosiah 21:28, where it talks about how excited Limhi was to find out that King Mosiah was able to translate the plates. So this book, this Book of Ether is kind of out of context as far as the chronology of the Book of Mormon goes 'cause you would put the Book of Ether at the very, very beginning. I would know seminary teachers that would actually teach the Book of Ether first, and then start with the Book of Mormon. So if you wanna think like, "Now, where does this fit in?" It fits in way before Nephi. In fact, it fits in right after Noah, and so we'll talk a little bit about that today, but just know that the Book of Ether is separate from the history of the Book of Mormon.

0:06:00 KL: I actually love that it's last though. For me, the Book of Ether is so poetic and so full of symbolism that I almost need all the stuff that came before it, like if I was reading the Book of Mormon in its entirety, I need all of that to prepare my heart for digging into this.

0:06:19 TH: I'm so glad you shared that, KaRyn 'cause I think for a lot of people, we just need to know that it was added into and that it doesn't flow with the story of Mormon. So I'm so grateful for you sharing that. Thank you, that's awesome. KaRyn, speaking of it being the last record, the person that wrote the Book of Ether is Ether, who was the last prophet of these Jaredite people. So we read that as we go through the chronology of Ether chapter 1 and all the genealogy, which we'll get to in just a second, then we have the when and where of the Book of Ether. So, this is a record of the people from the tower of Babel in the old world or Old Testament, and occupied a part of the ancient Americas from approximately... Now, these dates are from the Ogden/Skinner book that I use, and they said from 2200 BC to at least the 500 BC, that's the date or the time frame that the Book of Ether falls into, and then it makes sense for this genealogical record. So my question to you both before we get into this is, did either one of you, and Tamu, I think you already told me you did, but did either one of you grow up with a family Bible that had the family history in it or the genealogy?

0:07:21 TS: We had one that is called the African Bible. It was my great-great-grandfather's. So it had his name, and then his children, and then whoever inherited it, they just put their kids. But I think actually, as my grandmother and her siblings got older, they got identical Bibles and they just wrote the history in it themselves.

0:07:47 TH: Who inherited it?

0:07:50 TS: I don't know who inherited the actual Bible, but I do know that there were a lot of fights about it growing up, then I would just remember going to my aunt's house when I was probably 12 and seeing the same exact Bible that I think that they ended up just all going in and buying identical Bibles and then just recording the history, 'cause it was a mess, that kind of stuff gets messy, especially in black families. My great-great-grandfather, he was born in slavery, which is crazy, right? 'Cause it's me like you just think, consideration that, but someone else had to write his history in there. So yeah, that's why it was so important because he couldn't read and write, or maybe he didn't read or write well, I don't know the full story, and people are gone that could have given it to me.

0:08:43 TH: Oh, my gosh, Tamu, thank you so much because what you just shared is a powerful example of how important the family Bible was and can actually still be. Now, I did have a family Bible growing up, and my mom would write all of our birth dates, our baptismal dates when things had happened, and I think we also had the priesthood line of authority in there. KaRyn, do you guys have a family Bible like that?

0:09:03 KL: No, we don't.

0:09:06 TH: Well, I wanna know if anyone does have a family Bible, I want you to post those pictures for us. I'm gonna ask for it this week, 'cause I'm curious to know if anyone has that in their family line. 'Cause here's what's interesting about the family Bible. A lot of historians look for these family Bibles and old family Bibles, they were very vital 'cause they recorded the events in the life of a family. I thought this was interesting, when I looked up the use of a family Bible, this was cool, they were used by families to prove these events in trying to secure benefits like military pension, so you would take your family Bible down to a vital records office to show and if it was written, they're like, "Okay, that's good enough." So if anyone has one, share your pictures, I'd love to see them. Now, what does this whole have to do with Ether? Go into Ether chapter 1, and we're gonna look at verse 6, because right here, we have sort of a family Bible, we have this long genealogy. Now, be honest you two, what have you done when you've come to this part of Ether chapter 1?

0:09:58 TS: Oh, gosh!

0:10:00 TH: You just yawned, Tamu. [laughter]

0:10:03 TS: I do, I just scanned through it and then I skipped to 33.

0:10:06 KL: I read it to see if I recognize any of those names from babies born here in Utah. [laughter]

0:10:13 TH: I did wonder if anyone's named their kids this name. For sure, I did. I was like, "Oh, I know a Kim and a Levi, but that's about it. I'd love it if you like, My name's Amnigaddah.

0:10:24 KL: Emer.

0:10:25 TH: Emer. Hearthom?

0:10:26 KL: Riplakish.

0:10:27 TH: Yeah.

0:10:27 TS: Riplakish?

0:10:29 TH: Riplakish?

0:10:29 TS: Shiz.

0:10:30 TH: Whatever. So the cool thing. Wait, Tamu, I loved that you just mentioned Shiz. We're gonna get to him in two weeks, I can't wait to talk about that name. So the cool thing about these verses is take the time to read them, because this is someone's genealogy. Ether wanted us to know this, and the reason why is that he says right here in verse 6, he wrote his record, the person who wrote the record was Ether, he was a descendant of Coriantor. It goes all the way down until, like you said, Tamu, we get to verse 33, but what's so cool is starting at verse 33 until you get to the end of the Book of Ether, we go backwards and learn about every single one of these men in the genealogy. We're gonna find out what they did, who ruled, who was righteous, who wasn't? And so while you're reading their names here, now we're gonna read their whole history and we're gonna share some stories about them, and that will come up in the next two episodes we have. We won't do that today 'cause we're only gonna talk about one person. But just give it a read, it's totally worth it because Ether wants us to know about his family.

0:11:29 TS: Well, thank you, Tammy, for calling me to repentance. From now on, I feel bad now because I'm like, "Oh yeah, that's... I want somebody to... I want my kids to read our family history like the names, take the time to get to know them." So thank you. From now on, I will not be skipping that part anymore.

0:11:48 TH: Well, you're welcome, and then you'd want your kids to use your family names. That's what's so cool about it.

0:11:52 TS: Absolutely.

0:11:55 TH: Yes. So in the next segment, we're gonna pick up in verse 33 where the genealogical record ends, and we're gonna talk about a man named Jared.

Segment 2

0:12:10 TH: Have either one of you ever been to a place where you did not speak the language? KaRyn, I know you moved to Korea and you didn't know Korean. Tell us about that.

0:12:19 KL: Well, I lived there for two years, and before I went, I learned how to read Hangul, which is the Korean alphabet, but I didn't know any of the words. So one day I had to take a bus to work, but I accidentally got on the wrong bus and had forgotten my wallet that day, I think.

0:12:37 TH: Oh, no.

0:12:39 KL: And I didn't have my cellphone. It was terrifying, if I can be completely frank. And the place where I went, nobody spoke English, literally nobody, but I was so grateful that I had learned how to at least know the alphabet because I could kind of sound out the names of the cities, and when I got there, I figured out where the bank was that I bank with and I went in and I found someone who spoke English and they helped me figure out how to get on the right bus, but it was terrifying.

0:13:05 TH: Thank you for sharing that 'cause it is terrifying, it is scary. I've been in a similar situation. So let's go to Ether chapter 1, and we're gonna read verse 33, and KaRyn, will you read that for us, please?

0:13:15 KL: Okay, so we're at the part where you just got done reading all of the names in the family Bible.

0:13:20 TH: He says in verse 32, the son of Jared.

0:13:24 KL: The son of Jared, which Jared came forth with his brothers and their families, with some others and their families from the great tower at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth, and according to the word of the Lord, the people were scattered.

0:13:41 TH: Okay, I'm gonna give you a little bit of history about the Tower of Babel, because oftentimes, we can read that story in Genesis and go, "Oh, it's just in here, so we can have a reason why there's so many different languages." But there's actually a true reason why there's so many different languages. And this is what happened. So there's a man by the name of Nimrod, and that name is gonna come into play later on in the Book of Ether, so we need to know this name. This man by the name of Nimrod, he was aware of temple covenants, and the Babylonians were very well aware of temples, covenants, everything that had to do with the temple, and Nimrod was like, "Ah, this is a lot of work, so I have a way better idea. Here's what we should do, why don't we build a tower that will get us all the way to heaven? We can just bypass covenants, and it's gonna be a lot easier for everybody and we'll still be sealed because we're just gonna make it all the way up to heaven."

0:14:29 TH: Now, the interesting thing about this is when we talk about how in Ether 1:33, at the very end, it says, "And according to the word of the Lord, the people were scattered." That word scattered is synonymous with the word wasted, according to the 1828 dictionary that Joseph Smith would have used at the time that he was translating the plates. Now, when Malachi was speaking to the people, and Joseph Smith received a revelation in Doctrine and Covenants Section 2, the Lord says to him that Elijah the prophet will come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord, and that because of genealogy work that we will do, the world will not be utterly wasted at His coming. And what he's talking about there is a sealing ordinance, he's talking about being sealed back to the family of Jesus Christ through covenants through the temple.

0:15:13 TH: And so it's interesting to me right here because the Lord is going to scatter the people, meaning they're not gonna be sealed to each other, he is done with them, and that's why he scatters their languages and all the people, because they had been making illicit counterfeit promises with God through Nimrod's word, not through God. So they build this huge gigantic tower, the brother of Jared is there, all these people are there, and the Lord comes down and he says, "No, this is not the right way to worship me. You need covenants, you need sacrifice, you can't just build a tower and think you're automatically sealed to me. So as a result, I'm going to waste everybody, I'm going to scatter all of you."

0:15:49 KL: So when my dad used to call us Nimrods when we were kids, when he was not in his best place, really and truly we weren't Nimrods 'cause we weren't making false promises with God to bypass the covenants of the temple.

0:16:05 TH: There you go.

0:16:05 KL: So, there you go, Dad. You are wrong.

0:16:08 TH: You weren't.

0:16:10 TS: I agree.

0:16:10 TH: Well, it's kinda funny. It's interesting because the name Nimrod, among many Jews, Nimrod's name has always been a symbol of rebellion against God and usurp authority. And Josephus, he's an ancient Jewish historian, and he also noted that Nimrod had tried to gain power over the people by using this counterfeit control. So he was just very devious and his whole goal was just to fill...

0:16:32 KL: Well, in that case, maybe he was a little bit right 'cause I did...

0:16:34 TH: The Nimrod?

0:16:35 KL: Try to usurp power over my siblings.

0:16:38 TS: Well, you probably should call him and say thank you for getting you on the right track.

[laughter]

0:16:43 TH: Exactly.

0:16:44 TS: 'Cause now y'all are scattered and by being scattered, we can all come back together.

0:16:48 TH: Exactly. Now, I want us to think about the brother of Jared and his family and all of their friends in context of what's going on. We have this man teaching the people, there's a much easier way to do it, everyone's being scattered. And then let's go to Ether 1:34, and Tamu, will you read verse 34?

0:17:07 TS: I sure will. "And the brother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not understand our word."

0:17:22 TH: Thank you. Alright, you two. What can we then assume about these people? About Jared? The brother of Jared and the friends?

0:17:30 KL: Well, first of all, he felt confident enough in his own relationship to God to ask not to be part of the punishment that Nimrod and his people were about to get handed down. Which is really interesting to me, I'd never thought of that before. He has to have been a good guy or someone who was at least trying to be close to those covenants for him to feel confident enough to say, "Hey, go." People ask for that.

0:17:55 TS: I always thought that it was interesting that he was actually there though, it's one of those things that I find really peculiar, like why is he there if he doesn't want to be there? And is he warning other people too, "Hey, let's say the opposite prayer what Nimrod is saying. Let's pray to God because we want these covenants, we want to have our own personal relationships with God, and we need that and in order to have that, we have to have these covenants, not through building this tower."

0:18:22 TH: Well. I'm thinking, he's you in the airport, Tamu. He's saying to everyone, "Pray. Everybody, just start praying, please. This is the right way."

0:18:31 TS: Everybody pray. Pray.

0:18:31 KL: And here's the other thing. I always thought it was so interesting that Jared didn't say the prayer. He was like, "Hey, big and mighty brother of mine, can you do the praying?" I don't think Jared was a slouch by any means, but maybe there was something to the brother of Jared's relationship with God, maybe there were already some covenants, maybe there was a calling involved, something that sort of made him the mouthpiece or the person that they went to. The other thing I'm curious about is, why did they need to tell us that he was a big and mighty man? Does that mean Jared was tiny? And is one better than the other? Because if that's the case, then I'm living large.

[laughter]

0:19:09 TH: Yeah, exactly, I love that. You know, it's interesting you bring that up, highlight that in verse 34 where it says a large and mighty man, a man highly favored of the Lord, that is very parallel with the way that Nephi is described in 1 Nephi, who was a younger brother, and what I think is interesting is on my mission, Elder Jacob de Jager came and spoke to us and he told us what the brother of Jared's name is, which is Mahonri Moriancumer. But what I thought was interesting is that Elder de Jager said when they were translating the Book of Mormon into Thai, there's only two ways you can say brother, older brother, younger brother, and nothing is revealed in Ether to tell us which one he is. And so those who are translating actually had to call in to the first presidency and say, "We need to know the difference so we can put brother in here." And so Elder de Jager said that the brother and prayed about it, took some time and came back to those who were translating and said, "He is the younger brother."

0:19:58 TS: Well, and it also makes sense that he would describe him then as large in stature, because when I look at my two boys, the younger one is the one that's large in stature and also used to say the most powerful prayers growing up, he would say the longest prayer. So if we were hungry, we would be like, "Nah, not him."

0:20:20 KL: I also wonder if that large and mighty is a descriptor that's not physical. I'm just thinking about the description that I read where it talked about even Adam being equally yoked in a vision that Joseph Smith had and where he saw them both with broad shoulders and he saw them both with strong bodies, and that's with his spiritual eyes. And I wonder if there's a little bit of that here when we describe these mighty men of the scriptures. Maybe in reality they were 5'4, but there's something so powerful about who they are, that when we describe them, there's no other way to describe them, you have to say large and mighty because that's what their spirit was presenting to us.

0:21:04 TH: Oh, KaRyn, I love that 'cause who wouldn't say that about President Hinckley? Or President Nelson.

0:21:09 TS: Amen. Amen. And I hope that people listening to this, I know that they just got goosebumps because that was true. It was true. I remember years ago being at an event and Elder Haight was there and he walked in and he's just this teeny, small, frail older man, and then when he started speaking, my spirit, it just woke up. His voice at first it sounded like a more mature man, and then he just sounded like a powerful, strong man that knew what he was talking about and had this strong relationship with God. And so by the end of his talk, his age didn't matter, his stature didn't matter because his spirit was strong, it was mighty. And I felt that.

0:22:03 TH: Wow, thank you both of you for that discussion. That was incredible. I love our definition of large in stature because then he's going to pray a lot of prayers. And so, my question to you is, I want you to think about this, are you ever worried that maybe you're asking for too much? Have you ever wondered like, I don't wanna bother the Lord?

0:22:22 TS: Often. Especially in 2020, who hasn't? 2020 has been one of those, you be like, "Come on, God. Please, Lord."

0:22:30 TH: I'm laughing because the other night when Jim and I were saying our nightly prayers together, he truly did say, "Heavenly Father, just, please end this. I know you can do it, so just do it. Please? I mean, we just keep praying for it to be over, we get it, we've all learned our lesson. Let it be done. Amen."

[laughter]

0:22:48 TS: Amen.

0:22:48 TH: I laughed so hard, I'm like...

0:22:49 TS: I love him.

0:22:51 TH: I know you can do it. Just end the pandemic. Oh, I laughed so hard. What about you, KaRyn?

0:22:56 KL: So I'm sitting here laughing because I had once seen the Saturday Night Live skit where they were making fun of people who pray too much. Like they had... It was Jan Hooks for anybody who remembers SNL in the '90s, she was the Southern woman who prayed over her toast, and so they were mocking this sort of call upon Jesus for everything. And I remember when I was a missionary and I was deeply depressed, and I went to a therapist and he was like, "You have to rely upon the Lord for every breath of your day, you're going to have to learn to pray at every turn." So because I had watched that SNL skit, I felt this kind of shame about the possibility of asking the Lord to be with me at every single moment, but I learned in that time that I literally had to ask Heavenly Father, please help me put my foot outside this car so that I can get out of the car and then I would have to say, "And now, Heavenly Father, I need you to help me walk to the door." And I would literally have to pray like that throughout the day just to be able to do and function the way a normal person would, and so yes, I've been scared to ask too much of the Lord, but what I learned from that experience is that he is waiting, he's waiting to give us everything we ask for, and he doesn't think it's too much. Sorry, I'm crying, I'm always crying.

0:24:21 TS: Don't apologize, no.

0:24:22 TH: Please don't apologize, KaRyn. That was incredible. There are many of us listening right now to those words who have felt, "Gosh, am I praying too often? Am I asking too much of the Lord?" And so I wanted to read this quote by Elder James E. Faust, going back to are we praying too much and is He hearing our prayers. And this is what Elder Faust had to say: "Access to our Creator through our Savior is surely one of the great privileges and blessings of our lives. I have learned from countless personal experiences that great is the power of prayer. No earthly authority can separate us from direct access to our Creator. There can never be a mechanical or electronic failure when we pray. There is no limit on the number of times or how long we can pray each day. There is no quota of how many needs we wish to pray for in each prayer. We do not need to go through secretaries or make appointments to reach the throne of grace. He is reachable at any time and any place."

0:25:14 TH: And so often, throughout the story of the brother of Jared, every time he goes to pray, it says he cried unto the Lord. That is the word it said. It doesn't say he prayed, it says he cried. I just wanted to know, what is that like? Is there a difference between saying a prayer or crying to the Lord?

0:25:32 TS: I think sometimes we become very mechanical in our prayers, I think that a cry unto the Lord is you're pouring out your heart. I think that sometimes, really, most of the time, we really don't sit in that, what that means long enough. And when was the last time I really cried unto the Lord?

0:25:52 TH: I'm gonna think about that for a long time, Tamu. When was the last time I cried unto the Lord? Thanks for sharing that. So the brother of Jared, if you read throughout Ether chapter 1, everything he prayed for, he got. He received all of the answers to the prayers that he needed. So in the next segment, we're gonna look at all that the brother of Jared, his family and his friends were asked to do and how it worked for their good as a consequence of having all of their prayers answered.

Segment 3

0:26:27 TH: Alright, both of you. What's the biggest journey you've ever had to take that required a lot of work, coordination and effort? Do you have an example?

0:26:36 KL: I was single in my late 20s and I had an internet boyfriend in Australia and...

0:26:42 TH: Oh!

0:26:43 KL: Mm-hmm, yeah. Tamu's face says it all. I wish you guys could see this.

0:26:45 TH: I know.

0:26:45 KL: She's like "What?" So this was back in the days of ldssingles.com, and I met a guy who was in Australia, and we talked on the phone for hours every single day and I was just madly in love. And we decided that clearly I had to fly to Australia to meet him, and so we started planning this trip and he sold an old car to pay for half of the flight, and I had these bring your own internet boyfriend benefit concerts to try to raise money to buy half of my ticket, and then I had to go get a passport, and I had to buy a new converter, and then I blew out my hair dryer when I was in Australia. But the point is, it was a lot of preparation to go on this big journey to meet this man that I thought I would just fall in love with and get married to. Long story short, that didn't happen. My husband is definitely not Australian, but that journey, that's one of the biggest journeys I've ever taken, really scary, very exciting, but full of weird preparation. I mean, who has a bring your own internet boyfriend benefit concert to try to raise money and then go see their internet boyfriend in Australia?

0:28:00 TH: I'm wicked impressed.

0:28:02 TS: I am too!

0:28:02 TH: Wow! Tamu, you got one?

0:28:06 TS: Girl, not like that. Nah! I moved to Utah, that's it.

0:28:11 TH: So anyone listening can compare. In fact, I'd love to know if anyone has had a journey throughout the week that required a ton of work and coordination effort to see what that's like, because I can't even imagine the amount of coordination and effort that was required on the part of the brother of Jared and all of the family and all of the friends. Go back to Ether chapter 1. So here are three main prayers that he asks: The first prayer is, Don't confound our language. The second prayer is, Don't confound our friends' language. The third prayer is, Jared says, "Okay, listen. Ask the Lord if He's gonna make us go anywhere. Are we gonna have to leave where we are? And if we do, ask him where we have to go." So that's the next prayer, and it's interesting because in each prayer, I love the verbiage of this, and KaRyn, you probably will too, because every time he prays, it says, "And the Lord had compassion upon Jared." And then the Lord had compassion upon Jared three times. Every time his prayer's answered, the Lord has compassion. And so the brother of Jared and his family and his friends, they have this experience where the Lord has compassion on the brother of Jared, and then he says, "Okay, and by the way, you're gonna have to work. It's gonna be tough." So look at verse 41, let's just start there. And KaRyn, will you read verse 41?

0:29:21 KL: This is the Lord speaking to the brother of Jared, he says, "Go to and gather together thy flocks, both male and female of every kind, and also of the seed of the earth of every kind and thy families. And also Jared thy brother and his family, and also thy friends and their families, and the friends of Jared and their families."

0:29:37 TH: Perfect. Now, skip over to Ether chapter 2, here's a little bit more work that they have to do. Will you please read verse 2 and 3?

0:29:42 KL: "And they did also lay snares and catch fowls of the air, and they did also prepare a vessel in which they did carry with them fish of the waters, and they did also carry with them deseret," which by interpretation is a honey bee, "and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind."

0:30:03 TH: Can we just ponder on that for a minute? They traveled with bees. I mean, my kids are terrified of bees. If one bee is in the house, my kids have a complete freakout and they're gonna travel with them in a boat? Hello? That's crazy to me. Talk about major work.

0:30:24 TS: But don't you feel like when you know that there is compassion on you, the work is easier. So yes, it's seemingly hard to us, but when you're working with the Lord, isn't it easier?

0:30:34 KL: I was thinking that same thing, Tamu. He had the compassion first so that the work could be joyful.

0:30:42 TS: Right!

0:30:42 KL: When you know you're going in the right direction, whether that's flying to Australia to meet an internet boyfriend, or whether that is taking a bunch of bees on a bunch of barges with you, there's joy in that effort because you know that you are following the path the Lord wants for you, and that compassion is key at the beginning of those experiences, 'cause then you can have the faith to move forward. I love that.

0:31:05 TS: Well, and you know God has your back. It's like, if Tammy tells me to turn around and fall into her arms, I'm like, "I don't know if this gonna work out best in the relationship."

0:31:14 TH: Oh, give me a break.

0:31:14 TS: But if the Lord says... Look, I'm just being honest, I would do it, then we would just have to fight it out afterwards if you didn't catch me the right way.

0:31:24 TH: 'Cause I would've dropped you.

0:31:24 TS: I'm just sayin' but if the Lord... I don't think you would drop me but I'm saying like, "If you let me go to low, we're goin' be in a fight."

[laughter]

0:31:32 TS: And so, if the Lord says it, I'm just gonna fall back and know that he has my back.

0:31:37 TH: Oh, I think that's perfectly said.

0:31:39 KL: Well, and I don't know if you're gonna go here, Tammy, so stop me if I'm jumping ahead but... So they're gathering all these stuff and then in verse 6 it says, "they did travel in the wilderness and did build barges in which they did cross many waters being directed continually by the hand of the Lord." And I think about that part too, because later on, they're gonna be asked to build a really big barge. This is all preparatory. He's got them carrying those bees through the forest with all the seeds and with all the things, and they're building preparatory boats and crossing many waters and that's what I love about the Lord, and that's how I live my life because of these scriptures, because I know that every experience that he is giving me, they're towards a bigger end, they're towards a greater end. And if I can hold on to that, then like Tamu said, doing the work right now is actually an act of faith and joy, and I don't know, I get really passionate about these scriptures, I love them so much. [chuckle]

0:32:37 TH: I know you do, that's why I ask you to be on this episode 'cause you love them. For those of you who have your scriptures, mark this next to verse 6, this is interesting because Hugh Nibley teaches this, that when it says that they went across many waters, it wasn't just a lake, it wasn't just like a small canal, we're talking about the Caspian Sea, which was so vast at that time, it was at least 2000 miles long. That's what they crossed in these ships with all of their stuff, and it was huge, and after they crossed it, they had to keep going, they hadn't even arrived yet to the promised land and so, that's kind of the picture that's being painted for us here, they're just barely beginning their journey. And I love the use of the word preparatory. KaRyn, that's perfect. It was preparatory, but the compassion that buffered that, that prepped the way for the work that they were gonna do is what allowed them to do it. Oh, that is so perfect.

0:33:26 KL: And I bet they were like, "Oh, we've arrived!" Which I do every single time. A big, horrible thing and...

0:33:33 TH: "We're done!"

0:33:35 KL: "I'm here! I've come to the edge of the waters." And then I love that it says, "And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop." Right?

0:33:41 TH: Mm-hmm, in verse 7.

0:33:41 TS: Right.

0:33:43 KL: Keep going. There's more ahead. There's more beauty. There's more goodness. There's more, more, more. You just have to keep going.

0:33:51 TH: Perfectly said. Thank you so much. So go to verse 14 and 15 now, because I'm imagining they're just so busy with their journey and what they're doing that they just get caught up in the hustle and bustle of traveling and building and everything that the brother of Jared forgets to pray. And so we have verses 14 and 15, where the Lord chastens him for three hours. So Tamu, let's read that chastening, let's go to Ether chapter 2, and we're gonna read verses 14 and 15.

0:34:20 TS: "And it came to pass at the end of the four years that the Lord came again unto the brother of Jared, and stood in a cloud and talked with him. And for the space of three hours did the Lord talk with the brother of Jared, and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord. And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my thoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land of choice above all other lands.

0:35:16 KL: I like that because sometimes my prayers aren't cries, sometimes they're literally just calling upon the Lord, and sometimes I don't even do that, and it's a reminder that...

0:35:25 TH: He'll take anything.

0:35:26 KL: He'll take anything. It's enough for us to call upon him.

0:35:28 TH: You said, "Hi, how are you doing?" While you're driving, just to remember him. Well, and let's remember this too, when we studied Hearthom in chapter 10 a few weeks ago. What I like about the word chasten is remember that we defined it as, to be given correction, to help improve and become stronger. And so the Lord is preparing the brother of Jared to accomplish something that's going to require a great deal of strength. It's all preparatory, just like you guys have been saying all of this, so we're gonna learn about that in the next segment.

Segment 4

0:36:02 TH: KaRyn and Tamu, I asked you guys ahead of time to just read Ether 2:16-25, and we're just gonna talk about it, so tell the story line right here. What do we got?

0:36:12 KL: My gosh, this is just my favorite. Is it okay if I just go?

0:36:16 TH: Go, hit it. Yes, I even have right here, "Hit it, KaRyn." [chuckle]

0:36:22 KL: This is the part that just... Guys, if I can make a confession, I've even made fan art. I've made fan art about this chapter of Book of Mormon 'cause that's how nerdy I am about it. This is the part where they are getting ready, they've been working on these barges, they built them after the manner of the barges that they built before and cross many waters, and now they're at the big waters, and they build these barges the way the Lord has prescribed. So he gave them a very specific outline of how to build the barges, right?

0:36:52 TH: Can we look at verse 16? 'Cause after he gets chastised, he repents, he says, "I'm so sorry." I like how the Lord starts right on verse 16, the Lord says, "Alright, then go to work and build."

0:37:01 TS: Go to work.

0:37:01 TH: Go to work.

0:37:03 TS: Yeah, go to work.

0:37:04 KL: Get in there.

0:37:04 TH: Like he's feeling bad about what he did, and the Lord's like, "Nah, we're done. Now, get to work."

0:37:08 TS: Yeah.

0:37:08 KL: Yeah, and then he gives that description of the tight like unto a dish, which we all love in Mormon land.

0:37:13 TH: Oh, I love that.

0:37:15 KL: I mean, not Mormon land, in Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints land.

0:37:17 TH: Thank you.

0:37:18 KL: But then my favorite part is this prayer that he offers to the Lord. He realizes that there's a problem with the design, and the thing is, is that the brother of Jared thinks there's a problem with the design. But the Lord did it on purpose. He made it like this on purpose, so He gives them the specific design and the brother of Jared was like, "Oh, guess what, there's no light and there's no air in this boat and we're gonna die if we get in them." And so he goes to the Lord and he says, "O Lord, I have performed... " And this is in verse 18, "I have performed the work which thou has commanded me and I've made the barges according that thou has directed me, and behold in them, Lord, there is no light, whether shall we steer and also we shall perish for in them we cannot breathe, save it as the air which is in them." When it comes to the air, the thing that will absolutely kill them, he's like cut a hole in the top. Let me tell you exactly how to do that.

0:38:07 KL: But when it comes to the light part, the thing that will make their journey joyful, the thing that will get them directionally where they need to go, he doesn't hand that over to the brother of Jared, he says, "You've gotta think about this. This is the place where you have to do your own soul searching. You have to do your own work to figure out the joy and the direction." And I think that's so like our lives, he'll give us what we absolutely must have to survive, but then when it comes to the joy and the direction, that's where he says, "You go figure part of that out and then bring it back to me." And I love that part of the Scripture, I love that he gives him room, room to figure it out for himself, and to find what will work for him.

0:38:52 TS: I love it because you see that that's where the Father is, that's where the Father comes in. You can't have windows, because if we put in windows, they'll break. We can't have fire, because if you put in fire, there's this. And so giving him that space to really work it out, but also in conversation. To me, there's the back and the forth.

0:39:14 KL: I love Heavenly Father more in these verses than I do anywhere else in the Scripture. Right? Just that, what you just said Tamu, it feels like the brother of Jared is talking to a beloved family member. That's so cool. I'm so glad you pointed that out.

0:39:30 TH: Well, Tamu, when you said, "I see the Father here," that's what made me think of KaRyn is, it made me really think of how a dad would talk to his son. "Well, Son, you can't have a window and that's a fly and you can't have fire." It just seems like something that I'm imagining this dad is hunkering down with his kid and explaining the logistics of, "Here's how it can and can't work. So what are we gonna do, Boy?"

0:39:52 TS: Right, right, exactly. What do you think we should do? And the whole time, the Father knows. But what do you think?

0:40:00 KL: Yeah.

0:40:00 TH: As opposed to being that dad who's like, "Oh, alright, look, here's what you got. I'm trying to tell you everything, listen. It's so obvious." You know?

0:40:04 TS: Right.

0:40:06 TH: He's just this da da da.

0:40:06 KL: Well, and it's a little bit like he helped him design his pine wood derby car and purposely left awesome part of it or something. I don't know, I just...

0:40:14 TH: Oh, yeah, it's like a story in the enzyme that you're gonna read. Totally.

[laughter]

0:40:18 KL: But it's true because it was the design of the Lord to leave those things out. I really believe that, and I think that's true in our lives too. There are some things in our lives that he leaves out on purpose because it's part of our growth to do the work, but at the same time that he's doing that into Tamu's point, he's giving him encouragement the whole time too, right? In 24, he says, "For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth. And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot...

0:41:00 TS: That part right there.

0:41:00 KL: Right?

0:41:01 TH: There it is.

0:41:01 TS: Yes.

0:41:02 KL: That's it. "For ye cannot cross this great deep sea I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when you are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?" And to me, he's telling him like, "Go figure this out, but just know that I got your back, that I'm taking care of this journey, I'm the one who's in real control here. I want you to grow and I want you to figure things out, but I got this."

0:41:31 TH: Well, KaRyn, I'm so grateful that you read verse 24 because here's what's really cool about what the brother of Jared asks for, he did ask for light and he did ask for air. Well, let's go back to verse 19 'cause there's another thing he asks for that we often skip over.

0:41:46 KL: Which I did.

0:41:47 TH: I thought this was interesting. No, no, I don't think a lot of people notice this 'cause we assume it's with the light, but it's a separate prayer. There are three things the brother of Jared needs. So verse 19 says, "And behold, O Lord in them, there is no light." That's the first prayer. The second was, "Whither shall we steer?" How are we gonna steer our boat? And also, "We shall perish for in them we cannot breathe, we need air." So he says, "We need light, how are we gonna steer the boat, and how are we going to get air?"

0:42:13 KL: I've always put those two together, the light...

0:42:16 TH: So did I. Then now when you read verse 24 and verse 25, it changes everything 'cause then he's like, "Oh, and how are you gonna get to where you need to go?"

0:42:23 KL: Don't worry.

0:42:25 TH: "Oh, I got it, I'm going to bring you up again. I'm gonna do this."

0:42:29 KL: So what I said before about the light and the steering, that's giving me new information about that because I thought that he was asking for the light so that they could steer the boat, but you're absolutely right. God is saying, "I'm gonna give you direction and I'm gonna give you air," but the light, which is the joy, maybe that's the thing that we have to figure out for ourselves.

0:42:49 TS: And I think it's very telling to me that the Lord is providing the light, because we know that the Lord has his back. He's been saying this from the very beginning. "I have you, I have you. It's okay, I have you." And so he could have said, "You know what, don't worry about the light. I have you, and it's gonna be a dark ride, but you guys have each other and know that I have you," but he gave them light because he knows that individually we need the light so that we have joy and connection to not just each other, so that we could see each other on connection to him.

0:43:25 TH: Beautifully said, Tamu. Now, next to the outside of verse 24, let's cross-reference that with another verse of Scripture that talks about how the Lord steered them. So go to Ether chapter 6. KaRyn, will you read 5, 6 and 7 for us?

0:43:38 KL: But before we do that though, can I just say in verse 4 that I really love when it says that they commended themselves unto the Lord their God, they literally handed themselves over to him, they made him their master, right? So then in 5, it says, "And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blow upon the face of the waters toward the Promised Land," and that, I love that too. The furious wind is towards something, it's not just a furious wind, there is direction and purpose in the winds that he sends. "And thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind, and it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempest which were caused by the fierceness of the wind." They must have been so scared.

0:44:22 TH: Right.

0:44:23 KL: "And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep, there was no water that could hurt them, their vessel being tight like unto a dish and also they were tight like unto the ark of Noah. Therefore, when they were encompassed about by many waters, they did cry unto the Lord and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters."

0:44:41 TH: Thank you. And I just think it's beautiful. Again, going back to that verse you read, he says, "I will bring you up again," and he did that, he was like, "I'll steer the boat, you don't even have to worry about that." Talk about Jesus taking the wheel, he took it for sure on this one, right?

0:44:57 TS: Come on, come on, preach.

0:44:57 TH: No problem. And now we go into the story, then we have this idea about when he says, "Now you study it out and tell me what you want me to do." Let's look at that verse where the Lord actually says that to the brother of Jared, it's at the end of verse 25. "Therefore, what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when you're swallowed up in the depths of the sea?" Let's put Doctrine and Covenants 9:8 next to that verse. If you wanna know how to get answers to your prayers, this is the greatest section in the Doctrine and Covenants on how to get answers to your prayers. So let's go there quickly and read Section 9 verse 8. And Tamu, do you have that?

0:45:34 TS: "But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right."

0:45:50 TH: This idea of studying things out on your mind. I know for me, I got caught up in this idea, like, "Heavenly Father, tell me what to do. Should I go to this college? Should I marry this person? Should I do this? Should I do that?" And the Lord's like, "Well, just study it out and then ask me." Like, make your decision first, he will never choose for us. He wants us to study it out, and then the other cross-reference is Doctrine and Covenants 58:26-28. And KaRyn, will you please read for us?

0:46:15 KL: ""For behold, it is not me that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness."

0:46:35 TH: Thank you. That's such a good verse. And so right here, that's exactly what we're experiencing with the brother of Jared, I want you to figure it out. Kelly Reed once shared a story with me, and she said that her mom oftentimes would read scriptures and then she would say, "You know, in scriptures, the answers are always in the very next verse." I wish it would tell us how much time passes between the verses 'cause it would make me feel a lot better. I thought that was so great 'cause it...

0:47:01 TS: Amen.

0:47:03 TH: The Scripture's like, and the next verse is the answer, and she's like, "Was it a year? Was it a couple months to get that prayer answered?" So in the next segment, we're gonna learn about what happened in the time between Ether 2:25 and Ether 3:1.

Segment 5

So KaRyn, a couple of episodes ago, you shared your own personal experience with the story about the brother of Jared and the stones, which was so beautiful and so here's what I wanna know. Where did that idea come from? Why did you feel like you needed to take this hard time in your life and apply it to stones?

0:47:42 KL: I had felt so connected to all of the travel stuff before, like the barges and the getting ready for the journey and the way the Lord prepared them that when I read this part in Ether again for the four millionth time, it sort of struck me that if I wanted to have joy in my life that maybe this could be a pattern that I could follow just because I was struggling to figure out how to have that kind of joy. And I mentioned in the last... In that episode where we talked about fasting, that I literally went to Michael's and got 16 clear stones, the craft store, and wrote on the back of them. But I basically was like, "Okay, what are the 16 things that could add light and joy to my spiritual life?" Part of that was because I had been asked to be the singles rep in the ward in Korea that I was in, and I was mad about it.

0:48:31 TH: Sure.

0:48:32 KL: I'm not even joking. I was like, "I do not want this calling, I have no desire to be the queen of the singles in Seoul, South Korea." So this was a little bit of like my way of saying, "Heavenly Father, I'll do whatever I need to do to try to like this job you've given me." And so one of my stones was literally, "I will fulfill my calling as a singles rep with joy and excitement." And then there were a couple of other things that are on the stones, like one was, "I'll be open to all the possibilities that life offers, I'll trust that the Lord knows me, I'll have courage to embrace the future, I'll leave behind the things of the world, no more stuff," which is hilarious, but it was a nice idea at the time. "I'll practice loving myself and seeing my power, I'll pray every night about meeting my eternal companion," a little cheesy.

0:49:20 TH: Necessary though.

0:49:22 KL: Yeah. So I just picked a couple of things that I knew could possibly bring me joy in my life, and I wrote them on the back of the stones and I put them in a little box, which I have now lost. Maybe they'll come back to me in the next life, but then I used those as sort of a touch point as I went through the transition from moving home from Korea to Washington DC for the year that I was there.

0:49:43 TH: What I love about your story, KaRyn, is that you took a scriptural story and you applied it to your life, and you knew it would work, and I'm curious to know, did it work?

0:49:54 KL: I mean, the things that I thought would come from this sort of literal experiment with the 16 stones didn't happen, but I will say that I look back at that time of my life with... And I think I said this before, I was happy and I had fun. I learned to love the people that I was the singles rep over in a way that I don't know that I could have if I hadn't put that in front of the Lord and said, "You're gonna need to light up the stone 'cause I got nothing."

0:50:21 TH: How interesting that it was all preparatory for what you were about to experience, which seems to be the theme of this whole brother of Jared story. I just wanna go back for a minute to applying the scriptures to our life, because I had to wonder, did the brother of Jared do the same thing? Just like we talked about in the last segment. Did he study it out? Did he ask if it was right, just like you did? You know, this is where the Hebrew comes in for me. So I just have to show you guys this 'cause it's so cool. Let's cross-reference this story to Genesis 6:16, so write that in the side on the margin, Genesis 6:16, and let's go there. This is where Noah is building his ark, and he's getting instruction from the Lord on what he's supposed to do for his ark. Now, in the Book of Ether, it does tell us that Jared built his ark after the manner of Noah. And so it would be a very similar ark, and when you go to Genesis 6:16, the Lord says, "A window shalt thou make to the ark, and a cubit shalt thou finish it above." So he says to him, "Put a window in." Now, that seems odd because the brother Jared can't have a window, why would Noah get a window?

0:51:25 TH: Now, you guys, this is so cool. Look at the footnote for the word window down below 16a, it says in Hebrew, the word for window is zohar. Some rabbis believed it was a precious stone that shone in the ark. Seriously, how cool is that? I love that so much. 'Cause I always wondered, where did he get the idea? How did he just decide, 'Well, I think I'll have some...

0:51:49 TS: Well, yeah.

0:51:49 TH: And then we find out in the actual Hebrew translation that the word window is a precious stone, and so I think in my mind, the brother of Jared's like, "Well, then that's all I need to do. If it worked for Noah, why wouldn't it work for me? And I got eight arks and we'll probably need at least two stones each, so I'm gonna get 16 stones, I'm gonna take 'em up to the top of this hill," and then he's gonna say this prayer. Now, earlier I quoted Elder Faust from a talk that he wrote about... It's called The Lifeline of Prayer. And in this talk, he responds to the question someone asked, What is prayer? And Elder Faust teaches us there's five aspects of prayer.

0:52:22 TH: I want us to see these because as we look at these five aspects of prayer, I wanna see if we can find these in the brother of Jared's prayer. So here are the five aspects. The first one is, Prayer is a humble acknowledgement that God is our Father, and that the Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer. The second aspect, it is the sincere confession of sin and transgression and a request for forgiveness. The third, it is a recognition that we need help beyond our own ability. Fourth, it's an opportunity to express thanksgiving and gratitude to our Creator. And fifth, it's a privilege to ask deity for specific blessings. So with those five aspects of prayer that Elder Faust taught about, let's read the brother of Jared's prayer in Ether 3:2-5. And I'm gonna read it out loud, and as I do, I want KaRyn and Tamu, I want you guys to shout out one through five, if you see it. If you're like fifth, third, whatever it is that these aspects of prayer are in his prayer. Okay?

0:53:13 TS: Okay.

0:53:15 TH: You guys ready to do this? Here we go. Oh, and I like how it starts out at the top, he says, he cried unto the Lord saying, So here's his prayer, he cried, "O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy...

0:53:36 TS: Two.

0:53:37 TH: Good job.

0:53:38 KL: And also humble... Humility? Is that part of it too?

0:53:42 TH: Mm-hmm, it is. Awesome. "for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee."

0:53:52 TS: Three and one, I would say.

0:53:53 KL: Tamu's gonna beat me at this. I'm not very good at this.

0:53:56 TH: And there's a price at the end so step it up, KaRyn.

0:53:58 TS: Oh, there's a price. Okay. Step your game up, girl.

0:54:00 TH: Step it up. "because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires."

0:54:13 KL: I mean, it's like all of them. One, two, three, four, and five. [laughter]

0:54:17 TH: For sure. For sure. Okay? Verse 3, "Behold, O Lord, thou hast smitten us because of our iniquity, and hast driven us forth, and for these many years we have been in the wilderness; nevertheless, thou hast been merciful unto us. O Lord, look upon me in pity, and turn away thine anger from this thy people, and suffer not that they shall go forth across the raging deep in darkness; but behold these things which I have molten out of the rock." Anything stand out on that verse?

0:54:46 TS: One, three, and five I would say. I just think the whole prayer is very humble, lots of humility there but also recognizing their inability to do it on their own and recognizing that they need the Lord's blessings.

0:55:03 TH: For sure.

0:55:04 KL: I also like that one because he's sort of like that. The fifth one, it's a privilege to ask deity for specific blessings. You can tell that he feels like, not that he's like afraid to approach the Lord about it, 'cause I don't think that's what it is at all. But that he recognizes the honor that it is to step before the Lord and to say, "Here's my offering."

0:55:24 TH: Yup. You asked me to come up with an answer. Here's what I have, I know I'm not perfect. The next part of the prayer, and I know oh Lord, that thou has all power and can do whatsoever that will for the benefit of man, therefore touch these stones, O Lord with thy finger and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness, and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have light while we Shall cross the sea, and then Verse 5, Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou are able to show forth great power, which looks small into the understanding of men.

0:56:00 KL: Those last two verses, I tried to memorize them. I have a terrible memory, but I've worked really hard to try and don't test me on it 'cause I can't remember it, but I love those last two scriptures in that.

0:56:09 TH: I love that. I'm gonna do that.

0:56:14 KL: And I find myself sometimes when I'm feeling like I need Heavenly Father more than anything. Those words will pop into my mind and I'll sort of pray them, I know that thou hast all power and can do whatsoever that will for the benefit of man, therefore. Oh, Lord, please touch these stones, here I have to paraphrase, I'm really bad at it, but touch these stones, and sometimes that's my only prayer is just, I know that you're powerful. Please light, please Light, please light these things.

0:56:47 TH: Tamu how do those verses play into your life. We know that thou able to show forth great power, which looks small to the understanding of men, please light. I love how KaRyn ended. I'm gonna write my scriptures, please light.

0:56:57 TS: Exactly. I love it. I love the please light look, right now, just with everything that is going on in 2020, I feel like this whole lesson has been... I don't wanna say it's been a reprimand to me, but it kinda has been a reminder that just in everything, even from the names and things that you're saying, my husband and I are going through a very Tammy you know this... We're going through a hard time right now, and so I've been saying, Look, this is what I need. I need communication. If you can't communicate with me, then I don't know if this works, and this is me being very vulnerable, so I need y'all's prayers, and then reading here where I'm just like I actually have, when we first started going through it just cry unto the Lord that was me crying unto the Lord now, I'm just kind of like, I'm over it, whatever is gonna happen is to happen, if the vessel was going to sink, we just all just going by it. I don't care. Make it happen fast. And so that's where I'm at. And so just having this where God is like, Hey, you've been talking to me, what happened? Where did you go?

0:58:13 TS: We were constantly in this together at the beginning, and now it's like... God hasn't given up, I'm the one who's just like, I don't care, whatever, ways whatever. And so with this prayer I just found myself at the beginning of the week saying this specific prayer, because I know that he's powerful and I know it, I just keep telling myself, Just wait, because that's what I felt from God. Just wait, just like, Let's see how this plays out, but I'm not a waiter, I can't get to the next scripture. God is taking too long, and I'm just like, you taking too long, I gotta do this. And so in my life, I just keep saying to the Lord, just light me, just light the areas that I need to stand in, so that I could stand in them long enough to receive your blessings, your comfort, your compassion, to know that you have my back and that I'm going in the right direction, 'cause right now I just... I don't know, but I also am not... I'm not crying unto the Lord, I'm not... And so reading this, I feel I was like, "Oh. Gosh. Hey, Tammy for having me do this one. But I love you because I needed it."

0:59:29 TH: Well, Thank you, Tamu, I appreciate you being so vulnerable because right when I asked that, I was thinking about you when I asked that question and I just, the thought in my mind was that your prayer please light, and you are going through a hard time, and I'm so sorry, 'cause I just love you so much and that will be my prayer for you, but please light for Tamu and for...

0:59:50 TS: You got me doing the Mormon and you got me doing the release the society wave of pain here...

0:59:57 TH: It makes me so emotional, but he can do all things because he is a God of great power. And I just think everything in our lives, this is just the perfect... The timing is perfect for us to study book of Mormon in 2020. I just think God is like, I have been preparing you this whole year to take on whatever comes your way, and there has been so much devastation and so much lost in 2020, but God has great power and we just have to pray, Please, light every single one of us is entitled to a brother Jared experience, it's not for the elite, it's not for the perfect. It's not for the prophets. It's for anyone who's trying. And that's what I like about what you said, KaRyn, is that the Lord chastised the brother Jared, just 'cause he just didn't even pray, he'll take anything, he'll take that plead in your heart, like I said, while you're driving in the car and you're by yourself, and you just say, Please help, please light Heavenly Father.

1:00:52 KL: Right after that, the brother of Jared falls down to the ground because the Lord's Finger comes out and touches those stones and he lights them, and Heavenly father says to him, Why did you fall to the ground? You're here, you just saw my finger, why did you fall? And the brother of Jared in his imperfection says, I was worried you were gonna kill me, I was worried that I wasn't good enough to come into your presence right there, and the Lord reassures him because of your faith. You saw my finger. And I think that's something that each of us needs to remember, at least I do that if I bring my stones to him, if there's any light that comes to them, right, if it's even just a little bit of that spark, if the Spark is there, then I have been faithful enough to be the recipient of that fire, and I think sometimes we think we're not enough, just like the brother of Jared, he did everything he could, he brought it and he was still afraid that he wasn't enough, and heavenly father is telling him, You're enough. Your faith was enough. Because look at what just happened.

1:01:57 KL: There's something to be said about sometimes when we don't feel the spark, I have had depression in my life, and I know that sometimes I bring my stones to the Lord and I can't see the spark, I can't see the light, 'cause of some chemical stuff going on. And so it's important to recognize that that sometimes the light is there and we might have trouble seeing it, and that's when we turn to professionals for some help, but that if we do feel that and if we do remember feeling that, that we have been deemed faithful enough by the Lord to receive that. And I love that.

1:02:30 TH: I do too KaRyn, thank you so much for sharing that because that is exactly what we're gonna talk about in the very next segment.

Segment 6

I wanna begin this segment with a quote from Jeffrey R. Holland, because it piggy backs beautifully on what KaRyn just shared, so let's read this about what Jeffrey R. Holland had to say about this specific experience with the brother of Jared and Tamu, will you read that for us, please.

1:03:02 TS: I will read it 'cause he is my boo, the brother of Jared's experience with the Savior ranks among the greatest moments in recorded history. Surely among the greatest moments in recorded faith, it established the brother of Jared, among the greatest of God's prophets forever.

1:03:19 TH: Thank you. So go with me to Ether chapter 3, verse 6, and we're gonna read about the brother Jared's experience. KaRyn touched on it, which I thought was so perfect, that the brother Jared literally sees the Lord's finger, but what is so incredible about This is what the Lord has to say to him, So can we just take turns reading two verses each... I just think we have to read this part of the story. And we're gonna start in verse 7, and we'll start with Tamu, will you read two verses and we'll just go until we get to Verse 16, Those of you listening, just follow along with us and put yourself in this moment where the brother of Jared is truly having a conversation with the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Tamu go ahead and start with verse 7.

1:03:58 TS: And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth, and the Lord said unto him, Arise. Why has thou fallen? And he saith unto the Lord, I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me, for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

1:04:19 KL: And the Lord said unto Him, because of thy faith, Thou has seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood, and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast, for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger, sawest thou more than this. And he answered nay Lord, show thyself unto me.

1:04:38 TS: That's amazing.

1:04:43 KL: That's awful. He's like, Come on out, I'm ready.

1:04:46 TH: I'm imagining the way, I would have said it. Show thyself unto me? How did he say it? That's how I would have said it. I wonder if he was like, Show thyself unto me. I would be like let's try this. How's my look on this one, so yeah. Verse 11 and the Lord said unto him, believest thou the words which I shall speak, and he answered yea Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth and canst not lie.

1:05:15 TS: And when he said these words, Behold, the Lord showed Himself unto him and said, because thou knowest these things, ye are redeemed from the fall, therefore ye are brought back into my presence, therefore I show myself unto you, behold, I am he who was prepared for the foundation of the world, to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ, I am the father and the son. And me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

1:05:55 KL: And never have I showed myself on unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast Seest thou that thou are created after mine own image. Yea even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image, behold this body, which ye now behold is the body of my spirit, And man have I created after the body of my spirit, and even as I appear unto thee to be in the Spirit, will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

1:06:24 TH: That's a major stuff there, and KaRyn go back now, to what you said earlier when you were saying He's enough, He's enough for this experience. Regarding this experience, I wanna read this other quote by Jeffrey R. Holland, because this is what he had to say in continuation from how we started out the segment, so I'm gonna read this and I wanna get your guys's feedback and thoughts on this, Christ was saying to the brother of Jared, never have I showed myself unto man in this manner, without my volition, driven solely by the faith of the beholder, as a rule, prophets are invited into the presence of the Lord, are bidden to enter His presence by him and only with his sanction.

1:07:05 TH: The brother of Jared, on the other hand, seems to have thrust himself through the veil, not as an unwelcome guest, but perhaps technically as an uninvited one, obviously the Lord himself was linking unprecedented faith with this unprecedented vision, if the vision itself was not unique then it had to be the faith and how the vision was obtained, that was so un-paralleled, the only way that faith could be so remarkable was its ability to take the prophet uninvited where others had been able to go only with God's bidding.

1:07:35 KL: That makes me think almost of the power of the priesthood and how it's a force that exists, it is the power and authority of God, but it has laws and has rules that go along with it, and when the brother of Jared exhibited that much faith, the laws of the universe, the laws of that power and that priesthood just sort of had to bow to that, if that makes any sense, and I just think that's so cool because it's a reminder... And we learned this from Barbara Morgan Gardner on this podcast, that we have access to that every person who is a covenant-keeping member of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints has access to that priesthood power and can exhibit that kind of faith to kind of call down heaven. I don't know. It's just really exciting. I get excited about this.

1:08:23 TH: While you were KaRyn... 'cause as you were saying that, and as I read this quote, the word that stood out to me was unprecedented, 'cause we have heard that a million times on the news this year, an unprecedented year, an unprecedented experience, and then I read unprecedented faith and an unprecedented vision. And going along with what you thought then I was like, we as a people can experience an unprecedented experience as we invoke the blessings of heaven, as we use our priesthood power to call upon the name of the Lord and ask him for help. We've been asked to do that by President Nelson, to fast, to pray, to hear him, and now we need this to end, we want this to be over, and I believe that we as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can absolutely have an unprecedented faith building experience by calling on the Lord right now. I do, I believe it, I believe it can be a brother of Jared.

1:09:17 TS: I just wanna... Not so much push back. But I do think that as Members of the church, we have a knowledge of where that comes from, but I think about the woman with the issue of blood and she had the faith to go and touch the hem of his garment, there was no priesthood there for her, as far as being a member of the church, and I think that the... And I don't wanna say regular people, but the difference between us and other believers, we know that it's not a fluke. We don't think that it's a fluke, we know that it's real, we know that where it comes from, we have the faith to see the finger of God, as opposed to just seeing them light up as he touches them, we see him in these acts. I just don't wanna discourage people into believing that if they're not covenant-keeping or they haven't been keeping all the covenants, but they're listening to this, they actually have the ability to call down the power of God also. The difference is, is that do they recognize it as the power of God, or do they just think, Oh, I said this prayer, but later down the line, the next page, this happened in my life. We know where it comes from.

1:10:34 TH: Well, Tamu I'm so glad you brought that up because going back to Ether Chapter 2, Verse 14, it says at the end of four years, the Lord came and spoke to the brother Jared, and I wonder, had he gone four years? Is that what that verse is trying to teach us? He hadn't prayed after at the end of four years like it didn't matter, all the Lord was like, I just need an utterance, I just need someone to remember me. You don't have to be perfect.

1:10:56 KL: Yeah. And sometimes that's the start of the journey, sometimes the moment when we call down heaven and ask for that help is the start of the new journey.

1:11:04 TH: 100%. Let's jump back then. Let's go back into ether chapter three. So we just read that experience that the brother of Jared had with the Lord, and we have to read verses 18 through 20, so verse 17 Moroni pipes in, we get to hear from him, and he says he can't even make a full account of all the things of the full experience of the brother of Jared have, which I think is so cool, but here's what He wants us to know, and this is sort of Moroni is like, but here's what I want you to know. And we're gonna read 18 through 20. KaRyn will you please read that.

1:11:34 KL: And he ministered unto him, and I think he's talking about the Lord administered unto the brother of Jared, as he ministered unto the Nephites and all this, that this man might know that He was God because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him, and because of the knowledge of this man, he could not be kept from beholding within the veil, and he saw the finger of Jesus, which when he saw he fell with fear, for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord, and he had faith no longer for he knew nothing doubting wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil, therefore he saw Jesus and He did Minister unto him.

1:12:12 TH: Thank you, KaRyn. The end of verse 19 is so powerful, what he says, he had faith no longer, for he knew nothing doubting. So going back to the very beginning of what we found out about the brother Jared at that tower, until now, what have we learned about him, what do we now think about the brother of Jared?

1:12:31 KL: I love the placement of that because I know that the elder Holland said that he kind of called will that into existence, that experience by his faith, but I think it's interesting that we haven't even gotten to the journey yet, we're at the place where Heavenly Father was like You're gonna need to know. Without doubt, in order to cross the sea, I continually think about how the brother of Jared saw the finger of Jesus and the hand of God throughout this experience, and that was by design as well.

1:13:01 TS: And I think from the time of the Tower of Babel to here the Tower of Babel was where he was. That's where he had to endorse his faith, to put forth his faith, and I mean, here he knows, Faith is a hope, right, but I can't un-know what I know, and so I don't have to have faith in the things that I know to be facts.

1:13:29 KL: The other thing is, is that just having a knowledge doesn't give him a buy on the next heart experience that's coming up, which I think is really interesting too, he can have all that faith and have that experience, but there's still more... There's still more human life to live, and I don't know if that should bring us hope or make us feel sad, especially in this year of never-ending things.

1:13:57 TS: I think that for me, it gives me hope and it helps me get to the next... When I'm on plateaus, spiritual plateaus, I have to go back to what I know to be true. I know that the voice of God called me here to this faith space, I know that and until that voice calls me someplace else, this is where I am, and so I know that... And because when I know that, I know that when it's easy, I know that when it's joyful, and I know that when it's difficult, and I need to know it when it's difficult, so that I could get to that next plateau, the next step that next peak. And so, knowing it changes everything for me.

1:14:44 TH: Amen. You know what stood out to me, KaRyn, as you're reading those verses of scripture, it's the first time I've noticed this, but in verse 18 and verse 19, it says that this man might know he was a God, and this man could not be kept from beholding. It doesn't say this prophet, this man of God, it just says This man, and it just kinda ties in with everything we've talked about because he wasn't perfect, he was chastened. He's a human being, and this man came to know and have this incredible experience, and so it just goes with everything that you guys have said and shared today that we're all entitled to this... This woman, I applied to me that this woman might know that He was God, and I hope that my life will be able to be a testimony of that, that this woman knew he was God. And so it makes me kind of just think for some of us, the answers do come in the very next verse, they do, they just come that easily, and then for some of us, we're kind of sitting in that space between verses... Or in that time frame where we're waiting for things to be worked out or studying our scriptures, we're crying unto the Lord, we're praying that He will answer our prayers.

1:16:00 TH: And so for those of you listening here in the space in between the time of those verses, do not give up, keep crying to the Lord and He has compassion on you, He hears your prayers, and with that your experience in your prayer, it will be in ether in your life, like we talked at the beginning, it will be a mark, it will leave a trace on your heart among yourself and everybody you know, that is what I believe from this story about the brother of Jared is I hope that this woman will leave a trace that I know that God lives. So thank you, thank you for joining me today both of you. I loved studying this with you. So what are your takeaways? Gather your thoughts, think about what we talked about a lot today.

1:16:45 TH: So share with me what was your take away from all of our segments?

1:16:50 TS: For me, the takeaway was just a reminder, I remind myself of this from time to time, is just to get back to basics and my basics and this gospel is before I was a member, knowing that this was where I was supposed to be.

1:17:09 KL: I love that. This about the scriptures, and this was reminded to me today as we talked about this, that you can have your scriptures so marked up, I mean, I first fell in love with these scriptures probably 20 years ago, and today I learned something new, I found a new application, a new thing to think about as we talked about these scriptures together. So my biggest takeaway is that scriptures are a living, breathing thing as we add our experience to them, and that even the ones that you are like, Oh, I've read that before, I don't need to go back, 'cause sometimes I do that, I'm like, I've read the book of Mormon so many times, even then, new experiences will bring new insight and talking to your friends about Scripture will bring in new things into your heart and your soul, and that happened for me when we talked about the steering and about the fact that there was more in that scripture, and in that whole section of Scripture than I initially thought.

1:18:07 TH: Great takeaways, ladies, thank you so much. My takeaway was either chapter 3, verse 5, I'm gonna memorize that now, and I added at the end, please light, and I'm gonna pray that prayer for everyone I know Please, Lord, please light. So for all my friends and for myself and everyone I love, so thank you for sharing that KaRyn, that was great. I'm gonna memorize that this week. That was good.

1:18:29 KL: I'll test you on it.

1:18:33 TH: Alright.

1:18:34 KL: You'll probably beat me and I tried so...

1:18:39 TH: Thank you, ladies for joining me. That was so much fun.

1:18:42 KL: Oh. I just love both of you so much.

1:18:45 TH: I feel the same.

1:18:45 TS: I love you guys too.

1:18:46 KL: We should do more stuff together. I know.

1:18:50 TH: For sure. Oh. Well, for those of you listening, we would love to hear what your big takeaway was from this episode, if you haven't joined our discussion on Facebook, and if you're not following us on Instagram, you guys totally should. It's so much fun, people write the greatest things and they leave the coolest takeaway, so go there and join us, and I try to answer anything I can throughout the week, so if you have questions about the scriptures that you're reading, ask, ask away, and I love to also see what other people have to say and how they answer those questions, and then usually at the end of the week, on a Sunday, we post a call for your big take away, so comment on the post that relates to this lesson, and I wanna know what you learned, and I read every single one of those posts it is so much fun for us to learn from each other, you can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDSliving.com/SundayonMonday. And it's not a bad idea to go there because that's where we also have links to all the references that we use for today's podcast, as well as a transcript of this entire discussion.

1:19:43 TH: So check it out, the Sunday on Monday study group, it's a Deseret Book shop plus original, and it's brought to you by LDS living, it's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall and today our incredible study group participants were KaRyn Lay She's the host of The LDS living podcast, which is a storytelling podcast called, This is the gospel. So you need to go check it out. The stories are so great, and our other is Tamu Smith, who is author with Zandra Vranes called, Can I get an Amen? It's such a fun book. Go find it, you can find more information about these ladies, at LDSliving.com/SundayonMonday, our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and Erica Free. It is recorded and mixed by Mix at 6 studios, and our executive producer is Erin Holstrom. Thanks for being here, we'll see you next week. And please remember this man, this woman, you are all God's favorite.

1:20:32 KL: Can I just admit something.

1:20:34 TH: Yeah.

1:20:35 KL: I can't figure out how to use the church app, the one that's the Gospel library half the time, I'm just wandering around the wilders.

1:20:43 TS: Through the scriptures. God's scriptures.

1:20:48 KL: I just need...

1:20:48 TS: It's okay I know how to use that really well I don't know how to use LDS tools.