Genesis 18-23 (Feb 23–March 1)

Segment 1

Last week we began our study of Abraham and Sariah's tests. We only covered seven of the 14. So what could they possibly have to go through now? Well, seven more tests or trials. Seven more moments that will take hold of them as their heartstrings are wrenched. All to prove that they have an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God.

And seven more tests to discuss. That will give us hope when our own heartstrings are being wrenched, that according to Joseph Smith will. Also give us a place next to Abraham and Sarah in the Celestial Kingdom. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the come Follow me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together.

I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group. Please follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friends, Phyllis and Michael Hall from Layton, Utah. Phyllis, thanks for saying hi to me.

You're a gem. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different. And today we have two OGs. They're the best old timers. They've been with me since the very, very beginning. We're bringing everybody back. I think this is so much fun.

I have Aliah Hall and Karyn Lay. Ladies. Hey, hey. I don't know why I'm starting it out with a laugh because Tammy, you're killing me. I love you so much. Let me tell you what, for everybody listening, this is one of the best stories ever. So Karyn was my very first producer for this whole program and one of the very first episodes we ever recorded, I was a little bit animated.

I'm so excited to hear what you're about to say right now 'cause I, your memory is way better than mine. Okay. Take it away. I was. So nervous that my, my volume was high. My, my, I was so nervous. Everything was just like ramped up a little bit too much. And Karyn, I go, how did that go, Karyn? And she goes, yeah, I'm gonna need you to take your Rush Limbaugh down just a little bit.

All right. You don't need to be that loud in that. Did I say Rush Limbaugh? I didn't say Rush Limbaugh. You did? I did. Alright. You did. And I loved it so much. 'cause I'm like. I am a little bit great. Like I am loud. Okay. Alright. You're on one. You just, Tammy, you have just always been the person who loves the scriptures the most, and especially Hebrew.

You're, you love this so much that you cannot not be animated. I It's in me, isn't it? Yeah. It's just who I am. The only, the only. As your producer over, well, I think I only produced you for a little bit and then Katie came in, but. Um, the only time that we ever had like a moment where we were like, should we tell this story on air was the snake story.

Oh yeah. Where we were. I don't remember that story. We were terrified that pet was gonna come after you because you tell the story about the snake and I don't know if any of your anyone listening remembers that, but if you don't go back to season, whatever. That was one or two number. We did the book of numbers.

Yeah. Yeah. The book of numbers. We keep it. PETA did not come after us. So, and it's a story. I might just tell it again this year when we get to numbers. 'cause well we just, it's the best then I then I have just teased the audience in a way there, like I've, I've, I've offered up something. Yeah. This is gonna be, I I love you too so much.

Because when Karyn was with me, Karyn's like, listen, I gotta name for you and I really think you should have her beyond. And, and I was like, I don't know. You know, I don't really know her. 'cause at the time I was choosing people I knew and you go, no. Like she needs to be on. And, and so I said, okay, I'll do a this for you.

And that was Aliah and Aliah's a regular, now she's a fan favorite. Karyn like, can't ask for Aliah. Fan favorite. Well, and I, I'm still a little angry at Aliah, but we'll work through it. She decided. To move to Hawaii. Mm-hmm. And she was my best friend slash neighbor, so we're fine slash therapist.

We're fine slash walking therapist. Anyone who knows. Yeah. Anyone who knows. Aliah knows she's gonna be your therapist too. Yeah. You know, it comes naturally to me. I always feel like if you do something you love, then you don't have to work, but, and when you're not at work, you still have to work. People are calling me all the time for strategic content planning.

It's so crazy. That's me being sarcastic. 'cause nobody calls me. I would call you if I was like online. Okay? If I had a social media present, I would call you. Remind us. Remind us how you two know each other. So Kry and I were in a singles ward when we were like young and hip and single downtown Salt Lake.

Like I saw her, she saw me. She was super cool and had like cool friends, and I wasn't nobody. That's not true. That's not true. She always says this, everyone loved Aliah, but Aliah. Is an introvert. And so she shows up to the party, but then you never see her ever again. She'll like come to the party and then she'll be like, hi.

Hmm. And then gone. But you, it's, that's not really true either. I don't know how to describe, no, like, wait, maybe it would be you'd go to a party at Aliah's house where she had very extroverted roommates and Aliah would stay up in her bedroom. Well, I was set up for the whole party 'cause like I love.

Party planning. I just don't like party attending. There's a combination for you. Yeah. Yeah. Set up. And then everybody would come and I'd like be there for like half an hour and then I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go to bed because I have like nine 30 bedtime. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. Okay. Listen, I need you two to go through your archives and see if you can find a picture of you two when you were single.

'cause that will be fun to put in our show notes. I, I have a picture of us at our repro. Remember that you have a picture of you and me. Yeah. I mean, it's all of us. It's like Uhhuh, Amy and Angie and like, like a whole gra the whole gaggle of friends. Yeah. At I Prom. Repro that was Karyn's idea. 'cause she has the best ideas she does.

And he was like, oh, we don't have reasons to dress up anymore now that we're not in high school or college or anything. So we should have like a fake prom in our award. And we did and it was super fun and we all dressed up and had a repro. The real reason we had a re prom is because I was such a nerd in high school that I didn't go to my prom.

So I was like, we're really like, we're gonna redo this. You know, Tommy y, single rider. I didn't go to prom either. Never. Never went to a dance. Damn. We never did it. 5 0 5 across the internet, no dances. So, okay, well get that picture. Send it to us. 'cause we wanna see if you guys wanna know more about my guests.

You're gonna have to read their bios and see their pictures, which are in our show notes. You're gonna find those lds living.com/sunday on Monday. So everyone grab your scriptures and something to mark them with, and we are gonna do this. This is gonna be so much fun. Let's dig into Genesis Chapters 18 through 23.

So the first thing that we ask and the come Follow Me manual ask us to ask is, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you were studying these chapters? Ooh. So start with you Aliah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have been on this like, um, gentle comfort kick, and like right out the bat, the scriptures delivered for me.

So in chapter 18, this is where like, I think the three men are like coming to meet with Abraham, the three like holy men. And they're doing kind of their meet, meet and greet. Mm-hmm. And in verse five it says, I will fetch the Im morsel of bread and comfort e your heart. And after ye shall pass on, or therefore ye have come to your servant.

And they said, so do as thou have said. And that really like touched my heart just right from the beginning because like, I think the Lord cares about our comfort. Mm. Like he cares about our comfort. And, and that makes me think of like when later in the scriptures, when the Israelites are, um, traveling through the Deseret and the Lord puts like a pillar of fire at night and a cloud by day to shelter them from like the hot sun.

And that that's about comfort. You know, like he didn't just care about their spiritual wellbeing. He cared about their like, mental and um, emotional wellbeing. Like, I can't imagine being plunged into darkness every night. And so there was a pillar of fire and I can't imagine walking through the Deseret in the hot blazing sun.

And so he put a cloud by day and that's about comfort and like the Lord cares about our comfort. And I think we have to kind of have a different mindset about, about comfort and gentleness. What a great takeaway. I mean, that might be, sorry. I've already decided to end with, with that. That's my takeaway.

Wow. Aliah, thank you so much for sharing that. What a beautiful verse. Mm, I agree. That one stood out to me too this time. Yeah, that was really cool. I love that the word comfort in Hebrew can also mean sustain and, and how that is how we can comfort and sustain each other in all of our things that then that's what the Lord will do for us, so Very cool.

Hmm. Right. Corin. Well, well, um, coming to you, coming to you live. Um, we're all laughing 'cause we know what she's gonna say. Uh, I, I have had the, the week my husband and my stepdaughter are stuck. Have been stuck for a week and a half. Because of a big ice storm and that plus being ill, plus having 5,000 things.

I haven't, I haven't read my scriptures, Tammy. I haven't read them, but I'm here today. I have shown up, yes, and I am ready. And I'll tell you though, what's on my mind and what I'm hoping. We'll, as we're talking today, so, so basically, I'm that kid in school who didn't do the assignment, and I, I love it. I am, I, I was just thinking, you know, I bet this is relatable to a few of our friends out there, so hopefully, uh, hopefully there's no judgment, but what I, what's been on my mind this week is second chances.

Mm-hmm. Or opportunities to, I, I've been thinking a lot about how I'm, I'm, I'm. A middle-aged woman and I sometimes, I don't know if this happens to you guys, but I think, is this it? Is this it like, right. The, I've been, I've been working with young adults and youth and they're so excited about the future and there's so many opportunities in front of them, and I sometimes feel like that has passed me by a little.

I mean, I've done a lot of very fun things and I'm very. Very happy about that, but I'm like, what does the rest of my life look like? Is it going to work every day? And then just coming home and cleaning the house for the 4000th time? And I just wanna believe that there's something else out there for me, that there's still opportunity.

And I know we're gonna talk about Sarah, and I know we're gonna talk about God's people, so I'm hopeful that somewhere in there there will be some additional messages for me. So this is a hope, not a thing I got out of it. What I'm hoping to get out of it as we read. Oh, wow. My heart is so excited. I'm dying because I just wanna jump right into the chapter that I think is gonna answer your question, but I won't, but we will get there.

Okay. Because you are the other woman that gets talked about in this storyline, and it's gonna be yes, you're the other woman. You really are the other woman. The other woman. It's gonna be pretty cool. Wow. I can't wait till we get there to see if there's any connections to that. So, and I think you're right.

Isn't that interesting when you say, I'm a middle-aged woman. I was thinking the other day, I'm at the stage of life now and I've never been this way before, where I'm looking forward to, I might be on the earth for this many years now. So what am I gonna do with that? Isn't that crazy? You don't think that in your twenties?

Let's say I have 35 more years. Mm-hmm. I gotta be, I gotta be careful with how I use those 35 years and not waste it on frivolous things or stuff that doesn't matter. Mm-hmm. And so I've never measured time like that until recently. Yeah. And the reality is it's really beautiful to not have that POV. I think that the reason we don't have that when we're younger is because the job is to make mistakes.

Yes, it is. To go out and kind of like blow things up a little and see what you can do, but. When we get to this point, we're like, okay, I gotta, I gotta get my act together. Mm-hmm. I need to be, I have a limited amount of time to be who God needs me to be right now, doing the things God needs me to do right now, and I need to, I need to have access to His power in a way that I have never had it before.

These are such people. That's an awesome. Mm-hmm. That is awesome. What do you mean. I'm the same age you guys are and I am not thinking about any of that business. That's because you're, maybe you should. Just kidding. I'm just like, well, I'm here for a fun time. Not a long time. That's not true. You think drinks through, gimme a break.

But especially you think it more for your sweet child than you do yourself. Yeah. So like I live in his time period. Like I live in his time world and not in my time world. So like yeah. I'm not thinking about any of that. 'cause like I'm 10. Yeah. 'cause you still have a 10-year-old I'm, my kids are all like Yeah.

Out there doing stuff, so. Yep. That is the So true. That is the benefit of late stage motherhood. You are a geriatric pregnancy. And you were And you, yeah. Wow. I like, I'm still, I'm still 10. I'm like doing fun things. We're like, are we getting, get this here? Are we like, learn, get a set, like what we did, get a drum set.

We got a new drum set and we're rocking and rolling. We're gonna start a band. I would also say one of the things, Aliah, is that you're very good at being in the present, which most of us are not. So I I true think there's, there's balance in all things, and I really love that about you. And that's why you're such a good friend because you bring us back to the present.

Mm-hmm. Even when it's painful. Mm-hmm. I'm still scarred from a conversation I had with Aliyah. I'm like, that did, that was not what I wanted to hear. In a good way. In a good way. In a good way. Oh, in a good way. Okay. Well that was that later Cam. For sure, for sure. We'll go on a walk. I'll come to Hawaii.

Yeah, please do. Okay. Well I love it for Karyn, for someone who didn't have anything or didn't read what you shared was perfect, and I think both of you, what you shared is gonna get us on this path. Now as we study these chapters, 'cause there are some good stories and I feel like all of them are applicable to every stage of life that we've been in or will be in.

And so we've talked about how there are these tests or trials of Abraham. And for those of you, if you weren't able to list. Than last week. We, last week's episode, we started with the end of the story of Abraham and Sarah. And I just wanna remind everybody, turn to Genesis chapter 22 and let's look at verse one, because in verse one is where we get the word test or trial of Abraham.

And there are about 14 of 'em, and we're gonna finish those out today. But just as a reminder, in Genesis chapter 22 verse one, Aliah, will we read that for us? Yes. And it came to pass that after these things that God did tempt Abraham and said unto him, Abraham. And he said, behold, here am I. Now, the word tempt in Hebrew is Nisa, N-I-S-S-A-E-H.

And it means to try to prove or to test. So he's not tempting Abraham, he's trying him, he's proving him, he's testing him. And what's interesting is it says, and it came to pass after these things. Meaning all 13 Cassie's already been through, and now here's one more. I was thinking about that, and I knew that you, Tammy, would tell us like the Hebrew root of that word, but I was thinking of the Latin root of that word because to tempt and to temper have the same root.

Oh, fabulous. Yeah. And so like that God did temper Abraham. Mm-hmm. Again, like to prove him or to not like to mellow him out, but to like refine. Yes. You know, like a refinement. I love that Leon writing that down. Oh, so let's do this. In the next segment we're gonna pick up with test or trial number eight, and we're gonna see how that refined, Abraham and Sarah will do that next.

Segment 2

 This will be a fun question for both of you, 'cause I know who you guys are. When someone comes to your home, how do you show hospitality? Do you do something? What's your love language with your guests when they come to your house? I love that Corin just sat right up. 'cause she is a consummate, consummate, hospitality homemaker.

Go, oh my gosh. I love to host people. I love to have people over. And we just moved. So we have a big, we're in um, a, we're in a house that has a very large like space for. People to come. So for me, when people come over, the first thing that I do is I tell them not to take their shoes off. I listen. Mm-hmm.

I'm not saying don't or do in our house, the carpets aren't amazing, so keep your shoes on. Yes. No need to worry about that. And then I make sure that they know where everything is and then I feed them. You do so much food, have all the food, and I make them feel comfortable. Right? Like they come in and I say, oh, the, the glasses are over there.

Get stu. I have a, I have an ice machine, guys. It's like the joy of my life. I. I know it's ridiculous, but this is like the, my favorite thing in my entire home, except for my scriptures, you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah, sure. But ice machine. And so I immediately like ask them what can, what beverages can we, can we acquire for you?

What would you like to drink? And then I give them the whole tour and tell them to take whatever they want. 'cause I want them to be happy and comfortable and hydrated. I knew you would say that. Yeah. That is just absolutely perfect. And you're the roaster of meats and the baker of treats, like you love the serve people.

Mm-hmm. This is true. So true. Do you have anything, Aliah, when people come to your home? Yeah. So if you see, maybe I should ask Corin that since you stayed at her house all the way to the other side of the spectrum and like if I don't know you Yeah. You're not getting through the door to begin with. You don't have to take your shoes off 'cause you're not coming in.

But if you do come in, if I do invite you into my home, that really means that I love you. And so pretty much the first thing that I will do is like, invite you into my bed because that's where good conversations happen. True. I love that your cor I I get in bed. That's true. Let's, let's, let's chat it up.

Let's put on some blankets. Let's like snuggle together. Let's like have a chat. So if I love you, you'll be in my bed. If I don't, you'll be on the porch. And not in like a creepy way. No, not a sweet, no. Like a girl cuddled bunny way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's what we wanna do, jump into Genesis chapter 18 because.

Bracket off versus one through eight versus one through eight is the custom of hospitality. Right here we're gonna see it with Abraham and then you're gonna see it again with lot. When people would come and visit in the home, the first thing they would do is they would meet them at the tent door. So that's in verse one.

Highlight that. Because that's where Abraham was. He's sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. He lifts up his eyes and he looks and sees three men, highlight three men. So I'm just gonna take you through this and have you mark things and then I'll ask you a question. Highlight three men, because it, these three men are actually holy men.

And what you wanna know about them is in Hebrew, they are maim, they are angels. And I love how Andrew Skinner and um, Kelly Ogden both say that when you see the word angel in Hebrew, it can also mean a messenger. So it could be us, it could be somebody with a message from God. But in this instance, we have these three men, these three angels, and they come and they meet Abraham, and Abraham sees them and he bows himself toward them on the ground in verse two.

And then he says, my Lord, if now I have found favor in your sight pass, not away. Like don't leave, stay, stay. Come in my house. Look at it's Karyn, come on in. And then in verse four, I'm gonna give you a little water and then I'm gonna wash your feet. Highlight that that is a custom of hospitality to wash the feet of your guests.

Isn't it fascinating that the savior will take a custom and then turn it into an ordinance? Mm. I think that's beautiful because Lot will do the same thing. He'll wash these men's feet. Coming up in the next chapter. And then he says, and he says, and rest yourself under the tree. That's Get in your bed.

Get in my bed. There it is. Rest yourself. Awesome. But then, and yes, get in my bed, and then Karyn's like and fetch a morsel of bread. We're gonna give you some bread. We're gonna comfort your hearts. So come and sit with us. So then Abraham, in verse six, he runs to Sarah and says, make quickly three measures of meal, make cakes, make bread, get ready.

Then Abraham runs to the herd and fetches a cal. Can we talk for a second about how Abraham mansplain, how to make a loaf of bread to Sarah right there, because she's been doing this forever. I'm kind of dying. He's like, he's like, lemme, three measures of fine meal, need it and make cakes upon the heart.

And she's like, dude, I know how to make a cake. Several loaves. Yes, I love it. Then Abraham runs to the runs to the herd. He fetches a calf. And then I love this. When I taught this to my seminary students, I had them all sit on the ground and I had them have bread, and then I also had butter out and glasses of milk, and I made everybody eat bread, butter and drink milk while we.

Studied this story. 'cause he does that. He gives them milk in verse eight and a calf, and they have this beautiful meal and they dine together. And so these three angels, and here we have this custom of hospitality. And then in verse 10, they say, according to the time of life, highlight that in your scriptures.

You're gonna see that again in Second Kings chapter four. It's an important phrase because in Hebrew it means basically one year from now, quite literally, according to the time of life, or one year from now, Sarah, thy wife shall have a son. Now Sarah hears this in the tent door, and then Abraham and Sarah, it says they were old.

They're between, they're about, they believe Abraham is a hundred, Sarah is 90 years old, and it even says she's after the time of women, after the manner of women. So way too old to have kids. And people are like middle age. She's like old age. Yeah, they were, it was this real, and I love that people are like, were they really 190 or is that like dog year stuff?

Like old Testament ages? Mm-hmm. No, they were really 90 and a hundred. And then we have right here. Sarah laughed within herself. This is so fun, these verses. She laughs within herself saying, after I am waxed old, shall I have pleasure? My Lord being old also. And the Lord said unto Abraham, why did Sarah laugh?

Shall I have a surety bear a child, which I'm old. And then verse 14, is anything too hard for the Lord? Now we're gonna come back to that in a second. Be then it says, at the time, appointed, I will return to thee according to the time of life. So again, in one year I'm gonna return and Sarah will have a son.

But I love 15. And Sarah denied saying I didn't laugh. And I love the Lord's like, nah, you did laugh. You laughed. I love that. Called her out. No, you, you pretty much laughed. Okay. But I want us to go back to this verse in verse 14 because the whole point of this is we have this, I'd love for you to make connections and help me think of this.

My question is, these angels come, they tell Sarah she's going to have a child, and then they say, is anything too hard for the Lord? And my question for you too is how can we have this be a statement of truth rather than a platitude? It's important, it's in scripture. What does it mean to us today? This, for me, when I read that and like I thought about like, is anything too hard for the Lord?

And when I, because like I love the Old Testament, I feel like I'm an Old Testament girl. Not that I have a, a profound understanding of the Old Testament, but I feel like. I resonate with the Old Testament more than I do with like other books or scriptures because the Old Testament is like hard to understand.

Yeah. I feel like sometimes I'm hard to understand. Um, but also I think the Old Testament is like looking forward. You know? Mm-hmm. Like it is looking so far forward, kind of like how Joe Smith says, like when you're translating it's like through a glass darkly. Yeah. And I think about that with the Old Testament, that it's like looking forward and like if we think about the Old Testament of like, it's still trying to testify of Jesus Christ.

So far in advance and like it's trying to set up the, the paved stones, you know, all the, all the foundation for Jesus Christ. And so this question is really like repertory for so many is anything too heart for the Lord is a 90-year-old woman having a baby, too hard for the Lord is raising somebody from the dead.

Too hard for the Lord is giving. You know your son too hard for the Lord. Like, like where is your mind about what the Lord can and cannot do? And it's preparing the people for like, he's gonna do all of these things. I'm gonna show you that this 90 old, 90-year-old woman can give birth to a baby. I'm gonna show you that this childless couple can be the parents of a nation.

I'm gonna show you like all of these wonders and miracles and like he's planting the seeds and laying the foundation even now, like, let me show you. Wow. I like that. Let me show you. I, I really appreciate that Aliah went in that direction with it, because for me, I think it's, it's this idea of recognizing that right now, I, I don't know about you guys, but I want a different world.

Like I look around at everything that's happening and everything that will happen and everything that is coming. So again, forward thinking, but maybe towards the Lord's second return. To his return. Oh, that's beautiful. And I think everything feels really complex and really difficult. I've heard so many people over the last little bit say, I don't know what's true.

I can't figure out what's real and what's not real because of the society that we're in right now with all the different complexities. And, and for me it's this idea of recognizing that even, even in the midst of all of that complexity that. Nothing is too hard for the Lord in, in a sense of our access, our covenant access to him and to his revelation and his clarity.

Nothing is too complex. Nothing is too hard for the Lord to actually help us. Work our way through it. And if we want a better world, if we want a different world than the one we're currently in, even that's not too hard for, for the Lord to help us get. And it might look like it. It, it always looks different than we think.

Like I'm thinking about Sarah, I think about how she laughed. And how so many times I laugh when I hear things or feel things and I'm like, how are you gonna do that? How am I supposed to my patriarchal blessing? How is that gonna happen? How is any of this stuff gonna happen? And it's the reminder that it's gonna look different potentially than the way I can perceive it in my mind at this time.

But that nothing is too hard, but not just too hard, nothing is too complex. Nothing is too mm-hmm. Too out there. Wow. Okay. I really liked that connection you made, Karyn. What I loved about the way you answered that, both of you is, you know, Aliah, you talked about how Old Testament is forward thinking and like, I can do anything.

It's, it's all gonna be hard throughout the Old Testament. So many hard stories. But the word that you used specifically Karyn, when you were like the complexities of the world we're in right now and the life that we're living and what we're seeing on a daily basis, I dare say at the time of Abraham and Sarah Abraham's feeling that same way.

It's really complex right now and the complexities of this world, it's, it's shocking to him. So shocking in fact that in the next segment we're gonna talk about a dialogue between he and the Lord about saving people in this complex world. We'll do that next.

Segment 3

 Let's take a look at this complex world that Abraham and Sarah are in because I just love that word, Corin. It's so perfect. The situation right now is very complex. So we are in Genesis chapter 18, and in this storyline. Here's where we have Abraham and the Lord talking back and forth because there's something going on.

And let's read right now. We're gonna go to Genesis chapter 18. And Aliah, can you please read verses? Let's see. Let's go 16 through 20. Okay? And the men rose up from Ben and look towards Sodom and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. And the Lord said, shall I hide from Abraham? That thing, which I do.

Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him, where I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the ways of the Lord to do justice and judgment that the Lord may bring upon Abraham, that which he has spoken of him and the Lord said, because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great and because their sin is very grievous.

Okay, we're gonna pause right there. So I think it's really interesting that when the Lord starts out by speaking, I love in verse 19, that the Lord says about Abraham. I know him. So therefore I trust him in this matter 'cause I've got something I have to take care of. I have to take care of Sodom and Gomorrah in verse 20.

And it says their sin is very grievous. And then 21 says, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come un to me and if not, I will know. And then they have this conversation where the Lord says to Abraham, I'm going to go and destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.

And Abraham's like, okay, hold on, hold on. Like, I know it's tricky. I, I know there's apparently a very grievous sin, but how about if we just maybe save it if I find 50 righteous people and you can highlight the number 50 in verse 24 and the Lord's like, sure, if you can find 50 righteous, you. And then they keep talking and Abraham says, oh, okay, well what if I find 40, 45?

That's in verse 28. If I find 45 righteous people, they keep going and bartering all the way down until you get to verse 32. And the Lord's like, if you can find 10, I'll save that whole city, Sodom and Gomorrah. Now, one of the most important things for us to realize is Sodom and Gomorrah, the actual sin that they are very grievous for committing.

Is so important. We wanna cross reference verse 20, highlight Sodom and Gaura. And you wanna put Ezekiel chapter 16 verses 49 through 50. So whatever you think you know about Sodom and Gaura, we're gonna get rid of it completely. Get rid of it. We're not even turning the page to read what the men have to say about what happened in Sodom Andorra.

We're not there yet. We just wanna know. Oh, what did they do? Don't you wanna know that when you hear something sump super, their sin is very grievous. Isn't the human of you going, what did they do? Oh, spill a T. Can you spill a tea? Does that Ezekiel? You bet. Ezekiel chapter 16. Mm-hmm. Verses 49 through 50.

Let's turn there. Let's, let's spill a T. Let's find out what made them so wicked that their sin is so grievous. Okay, here we go. Corin, will you please read for us? Ezekiel chapter 16 verses 49 and 50. And let's find out what did they do? Okay. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom pride. Fullness of bread and abundance of Idleness was in her and in her daughters.

Neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and the needy, and they were haughty and committed abomination before me. Therefore, I took them away as I saw. Good. Highlight the word abomination. Because this word means idolatrous acts. IE worshiping other gods, something in their life was more important than the God that they should have worshiped.

Which is why the first commandment of the 10 is no other gods before me. Yeah, that's the most important thing. So now talk to me about their sin, Corin. Well, I was just gonna say, I mean, I think that over for a lot of years people have used Sodom and Gomorrah. They've used it as a way of kind of, I I think it's pulling focus.

Yes. 'cause the reality is Sodom and Gaura was not, if we, what we know from Scripture mm-hmm. Is that Sodom and Gaura was about being full of pride and having a fullness of bread. Meaning, in my mind, they had a lot to offer. They had abundance and they were not, they were living in a space of scarcity and they were, they were not sharing, yes.

And it ne, and he says it straight out. Neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and the needy and haughty and committed abomination. And I think I. I mean, I just really think that we have used these scriptures to pull focus away from ourselves. Mm-hmm. Because the reality is that the Lord is talking about every single one of us.

Yeah. He's talking about our propensity towards thinking we don't have enough and we need to get more. And then also, I mean, if we're talking about idolatry, what do we put in place of God all the time? Right. There are so many things that become more important to us than our covenants. And I am, I'm not gonna name any of those because there's diverse, diverse numbers of ways that you can offer idolatry or that you can choose idolatry.

We make idols out of our ideology. We make idols out of our jobs. We make idols out of real influencers. I mean, mm-hmm. The, the things that we can idolize. In this earth, above and beyond God is out of control for me right now. It's the, it's the game drop merge. I, I'm not joking you guys. I, it's keeping me from doing the things that I could be doing.

I sit and I, I. Drop little things, and it has a haptic, so every time, every time a number like goes into another number, it gives me a little jolt of joy and I think, oh, this is not real. This is mm-hmm. This is like fake joy. Yeah. But I am, but it's easy joy. It's easy, like fake joy. Right. And I think that the thing that we, we don't wanna miss is that it does say all of that, but following that it says hottiness, which means idolatry of self.

I love that. Yes. But it's not other things. Mm-hmm. That we're like, and we do that 100%. All of those things that grin said. But I think the ability to see poor, displaced, hungry, naked, enslaved, whatever people and do nothing is an idolatry of self. Yes. To, to only focus on like, well, I have. I have and, and so I don't need to worry about what's going on with everybody else.

And we're not talking about a little tiny city of 12 people. No. I mean, this is a huge thriving economy and Abraham is saying to the Lord, 10, if I can find 10 people who aren't like this. And he's like, yeah, if you can find 10 Corin, I love so much that you said. That not knowing that Ezekiel scripture is it.

You're right. It's pulling the focus away from where it's really at the heart of Sodom and Gaura, because if you turn the page and you read it, and then you go back to thinking that Sodom and Gaura is really about other things like sexual sin mm-hmm. It's so easy to go, oh, I'm not like that though. I'm, I'm clearly not Sodom and Gaura, but when you read the Ezekiel ones.

Oh, how close are we to becoming a people of Sodom and Gamora? And then you can see how this place that used to be okay to live in, I mean, lot had no problem moving there. Originally he thought it was safe and good for his whole family, but eventually over time it became so complex. Talk about a complex society and the complexity of the world they were living in, that the Lord's like, I just need people.

Who don't think of themselves, who are willing to give to others. Mm-hmm. Who are willing to be, give their bread and their wealth and share. And I just, I love the beauty of that scripture so much. 'cause you, it reframes what's really going on with these people. And it's interesting too because it's not like we're gonna get the how necessarily out of these, right.

Out of these scriptures. I think that comes when Jesus comes. Right. Beautiful. We get, be a little bit more of the, the how to do it in a way that makes sense, but. The Old Testament is just a, a self-reflection juggernaut, right? Mm-hmm. It's, it's looking at it and saying, where, where am I in this? Because it's so long ago.

But if they were struggling with the same things, the how they're struggling might look a little different, but the, what they're struggling with is exactly the same. I, I just think it's a good reminder that these problems that we're having are not novel. Mm-hmm. They're not new to us. That God knew that this was part of the, the.

The work we would have to do. And I really appreciate that about the Old Testament. It reminds me that I'm, I'm among friends when it comes to looking in inwardly and changing myself. Yeah. Well, I've, I'm gonna take the two things you guys just taught us and said, I love that idea that haughtiness is idolatry of self.

So good Aliah, and then I love Karyn, and you're like, it's this self-reflection juggernaut. I wanna take those two things and apply them into the next segment because we are gonna jump into the rest of the story then, and I want us to see how this haughtiness and this lack of self-reflection quite literally affected the players in this story.

IE lot's family, we'll do that next.

Segment 4

 Now knowing what we know about Sodom and Gomorrah, turn the page. Let's get into Genesis chapter 19. Verse one says, and there came two angels cross that out. It's actually three. The JST fixes that. So the same three men come and now here they are. And they are in Sodom and Gomorrah. And we have this whole conversation.

And this whole experience lot does the same thing to them. In verse two, he invites them in. He washes their feet, he feeds them, he wants them to stay with him. And this place is about to be completely destroyed in the. Angels they say to lot and his family. You gotta get out as soon as you can. This place is going up in flames and this conversation, let's go into Genesis chapter 19 and we're gonna see how lot responded to their discussion about leaving.

Let's read verses 15 through 20. We'll each read two verses and we'll start with Aliah and then Karyn and me. And when the morning arose and the Angels hastened lot saying Arise, take thy wife and my two daughters, which are here. Les Thou shall be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid back upon his hand and upon the hand of his wife and upon the hand of his two daughters, and the Lord being merciful unto him, and they brought him forth and set him without the city.

It came to pass when they had brought them forth abroad that he said, escape for thy life. Look not behind thee, neither Stay thou in all the plane escape to the mountain, Les Thou shall be consumed. And lot said unto them, oh, not so my Lord. Okay, now Mark in verse 17, where he told them to go, he says, escape to the mountain.

You wanna mark that for sure. And then in verse 19 and, and lots like, oh no. And then 19 says, behold, now thy servant have found grace and thy sight, and thou has magnified th mercy, which thou has showed unto me in saving my life. And I cannot escape to the mountain lest some evil take me and I die.

Behold. Now this city is near a flea unto it, and it is a little one, oh, let me escape dither. It is not a little one, and my soul shall live. Now, if you keep reading in 21, 22 and 23, it's gonna tell us the little city, this little place he wants to go to is called Zoar, which literally in Hebrew means little, it's the little thing.

And so a lot's saying, oh, no, no, I, I'm not gonna be able to get to the mountain, but how about if I just go to this little city instead? And I love that these angels are like, okay, fine. Go to Little City. That place isn't gonna be burned. Just get out. And I love that in my mind, because I had never noticed it before.

Technically the mountain could be seen as a type of temple. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And they're saying, get to the temple. You've gotta go there. And sweet law is just like, I, I can't, can you go to the chapel? Can I just, yeah. Can I go to the chapel? Can I go to somewhere else? Small that's smaller. Not as hard to get to.

And I love that the Lord's like. Okay, talk about mercy and grace. You know what, I'll take what you can give me lot. Just get out of the main city. And so they leave and they get out. And then you have the classic story about Lot's wife. And as they're fleeing out of Sodom and Gomorrah, we have verse 26.

Let's go ahead and mark verse 26. Aliah, will you read that for us? But his wife looked back from behind him and she became a pillar of salt. Now here's a couple cross references you wanna put Luke chapter 17 verses 29 through 32. Next to that verse, and if you put Luke chapter 1729 through 32, it's going to tell you that lot's wife didn't just look back, but she returned back.

The Koran. I really love this. The Koran teaches that lot's wife was. Part of those who stayed behind. So she didn't even really leave. She just stayed there. And then Elder Holland had this to say, Karyn, will you read this quote from Elder Holland about lot's wife, elder Holland said apparently what was wrong with Lot's wife was that she wasn't just looking back in her heart, she wanted to go back.

It would appear that even before she was past the city limits, she was already missing what Sodom and Gomorrah had offered her. Thank you. So you two talk to me about the application of this story. How do we apply this in light of anything like addictions or our own idols? I love that idolatry of self, the haughtiness.

Like how can we apply this story to our lives? Well, I think if we think about, you know, what we read in Ezekiel about Sodom and Gamora, you know, and we think about what, you know, that perhaps she looked back, perhaps she. Went back, perhaps she never left at all. And this idea of not being able to let go of your previous identity to like align with the Lord.

Wow. You know? And so like. Maybe from like an intellectual place, not like a physical 'cause we know like the scriptures are, are, are both like a physical record, but possibly more a spiritual record of like, when has the Lord asked us to leave behind some part of us. Some comfort or some identity that like maybe lots wife, like identified with Sodom more.

Like, I like being there. It's fun. All my friends live there. Like we have good, we have fun parties, you know, like, yeah, I know everybody. And that it's, it's nice, you know? And like, yeah, there's some bad stuff happening, but like, I'm not a part of that. Like I'm not doing those things. Mm-hmm. The Lord's like, yeah, but you need to go.

Many times the Lord calls us and says, you need to go. You need to go to Hawaii, even if your friends are mad. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Fine. You need, I mean, I think about when I came home from my mi, well, even when I was on my mission. Like I kept getting, well, even previous to my mission, like this is how the Lord and me deal with each other.

So the Lord says, Aliah, you need to do this thing. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, Lord, no, I'm not doing that. Like, he's like, you need to go on a mission. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm not doing that. And he is like, but in my mind he is like, well, if you sold your car, you could pay for a mission. And I'm like, I'm not selling my car.

I'm not going off mission. You know? And he's like, oh, if you quit school right now, you could, you know, put in your papers and go on a mission. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm not doing that. You know? And I went on a mission because that's what the Lord told me to do. And then I came home from a mission. He is like, you need to go to BYU.

And I'm like, no, you see this. This is not BYU material. I don't want to go there. And the Lord's like, yeah, but that's where you need to go. That's where you need to be. And I'm like, yeah, I don't want do that. You know? And I think so many, the, the one time that I, I know like Tammy had my dream job, she taught seminary.

The one time that I did get to teach seminary for like a short, brief little period of time, which was glorious and wonderful. One of the things that I told the students is like when we're reading the scriptures, you know, in the Book of Mormon and we're thinking like, oh, these are the me fights and these are the laymanites.

We are not the me fights. We are the layman heights. And when we read this, we're like, oh, you know, lot left. And his wife turned into a pillar. We are not lot. We are the wife. That's where our lessons lie. Yeah. You know, and to remember like, what is this story of lot? And not be like, Ooh, shame on you lot's wife, but like, how am I like lot's wife?

Mm-hmm. What am I not willing to let go of? What am I not willing to leave for the Lord? And, and for me, I even noticed a little bit of that in lot where lot's told where to go and he is like, yeah, but how if I just go here, can I just do that? And even the Lord's like, absolutely, Ugh, alright, fine. But even they had to like pull lot out of like, they're like, leave and he's like lingering, you know, I, he's like.

Lolly gagging and like, they're like, get out dude. Yeah, get out. He's like, but I have a brisket in the smoker. It's exactly, it's where my keys are. It's just not gonna be really good. I mean, it is just so funny. Oh, I love that Karyn. 'cause it is almost like, but I can, I just wait, can I just gather, can I say goodbye to people and mm-hmm.

Like, get out when the Lord passed a party. Yeah. Well, and I, I was thinking two things. One, I love that the Koran says she never left because it actually adds a lot of nuance to this idea of lot's wife looking back. Mm-hmm. We tend to feel like, oh, looking back is terrible. But the reality is, is that Jesus Christ promised us that we're gonna make, I mean, we're gonna make mistakes.

We're gonna look back, we're going to, we're going to backtrack on decisions or choices or mm-hmm. Positive, um. Positive progress that we've made there. There will be a time when I mean it, and having come from a place where, you know, we're a family that has been fighting addiction and, and, and mental illness for a long time, backsliding, or whatever you want to call it, is just part of the plan.

You actually make a plan for that. Wow. When you're dealing with someone who is struggling with addiction, you anticipate that that's going to happen because it's so, it, it just happens. Mm-hmm. Right. But when you think of it as, as his, his wife never left. That to me is, is the, is the sin. It's the never, it's the never moving forward.

It's the never trying, it's the giving up. Right. She kind of gave up. If she never left, she was like, oh, that's fine. I'll just burn with the rest of these guys. And I give up all the time. And so I love the idea of we're not getting a ding because we looked back, we're not getting turned into a, a pillar of salt.

It's if you don't try. Mm-hmm. If you don't even take that step forward towards a covenant life Yeah. That a difficult path ahead of us. And even then there's recourse. So this story is a story, right? Mm-hmm. I just, I always want to come back to the idea that just because you look back doesn't mean you're gonna turn into a pillar of salt.

So I love that the Koran says that, and I love that we're able to use additional information to understand these things better. And then the second thing that I thought of is that, you know, we've been talking about comfort. Like the very first thing Aliah said was, oh, we comfort people. We have this custom of co of comfort.

Everything that's happening right now is God asking them to leave comfort to go to a mountain where. Where they're not gonna be comfortable. Lot's not going to be comfortable in the mountain. That's not where he's from, right? Mm-hmm. And I think God wants us to be comfortable, but he will provide the comfort in our discomfort.

So in order to move forward, lot's wife had to get uncomfortable in order to see the Lord's comfort come into her life and to feel that. And so I, I think he wants us to be comfortable, but he's also going to. On the regular require discomfort from us in order to become not like Sodom and Gomorrah. This is something that I think about a lot.

I wanted to teach my kids about discomfort. Because I feel like they grew up in the suburbs. They've, they've had hard things. I'm not saying that they haven't hard, had hard things, but I, I really feel like as a parent, I wanted to teach them this sense of like, good things happen when you go out of your comfort zone.

Good things happen when you follow the Lord and listen to him and do these things. So we actually, 2020, remember when we couldn't get flour? Mm-hmm. And I had told all my neighbors, I think Aliah, I even told Aliah, I was like, Hey, if you go to Costco and you see bread flour mm-hmm. Um, get me a bag while you're there.

Buy it and bring it to me. Well, there was like one day where all of my neighbors went to Costco and 3, 3 25 pound bags of Turkey brand Lehigh roller mills flour showed up on my porch and I was sitting there with it thinking I can't, in all good conscience just hoard this flower. I decided that we were gonna do something different than our usual Christmas Eve dinner, and I spent the days off that I had making dinner rolls, and then I loaded them up in the car and I put my kids in the car on Christmas Eve and I said, we're gonna pray and asked the Lord where we need to go to deliver this spread.

And so we set a family prayer and we went out. And so we drove to a local Walmart. And we just opened the back of our trunk and as people came out, we said, would you like some dinner rolls for your Christmas dinner? And my kids were so embarrassed and so uncomfortable, but they did it. And I was really proud of them.

And we followed the spirit. Like we asked, where should we go? And we went there. We didn't have any magical experiences. There was nothing magical about it, but the discomfort of, of putting yourself in a place where you are sharing. Your abundance mm-hmm. Is one of the things that we as Latter Day Saints have to figure out.

Yeah. Because we are too comfortable, we're too comfortable, and if we don't, if we don't get out of our suburban little moments and show up in the places where people actually are hungry and the places where people are actually lonely, those places are uncomfortable places for us to be.

But we have to show up there. So I feel like the challenges of Lot's wife, she was probably very comfortable where she was and maybe that's why she stayed. But the Lord is going to constantly challenge us to get out of Sodom and Gamora, which means be uncomfortable and show up in the places where you can do good for other people.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you were supposed to share that story. I kept, all I could think was how amazing that in your children's utter most uncomfortable moment, provided comfort for other people. Like, isn't that amazing? Like they, they probably didn't get comfort. Like you said, there was no big amazing story that you would write in the enzyme.

Like, then we served people and you know, like you just did it 'cause you were supposed to, but your uncomfortable moments brought comfort to people who needed it. That, that is Ezekiel 16 right there. Yeah. And there definitely were people that when we gave them the bread, they were like, really? Really? I can have this?

Oh, that's cool. Like just homemade bread, right? Yeah. So get uncomfortable. Get uncomfortable. Thank you, Karyn. Let's take this whole conversation then. Oh, this is so powerful, this idea of being comfortable and uncomfortable, because in the next segment we're gonna talk about someone specifically who experienced such a level of uncomfort, and we're gonna see how the Lord comforted her.

We'll do that next.

Segment 5

 So just to catch everybody up, 'cause if you were trying to keep track of all of the different trials and tests, here's what you wanna label. Starting in chapter 18, we have trial number eight, which is that Sarah will have a son 'cause we don't believe it and they laughed. We have trial number nine. Where the Lord discusses the back and forth of bartering of Sodom and Gomorrah.

In chapter 19, we have trial number 10 where lot's family had to be saved. And then we have trial number 11 in chapter 20, and this is where, once again, somebody wants to marry Sarah 'cause she's so beautiful. So read that story. There you go. We already have one of those earlier, but it happened to her again.

Now in chapter 21 of Genesis, we have. Trial number 12, and this trial is so heartbreaking. So here's what happens. It starts out kind of fun because sure enough, in one year's time, Sarah does have a child and they name him. Look at his name in verse three. Corin, we please read chapter 21, verse three. And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah Bear to him, Isaac, and his Hebrew name In Hebrew, it is Iza, which literally means to laugh.

Don't you love that they gave the name of the thing they did so perfect. So they do that and then you even sweet Sarah says in verse six, and Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh so that all that here will laugh with me. It could also mean to rejoice, laugh or rejoice so that everybody, when they hear me say Isaac, they'll know I laughed or that we rejoiced when this child was.

Born into our family. So then in the storyline, Sarah starts to nurse this baby. And then in verse eight, when the child grew and was weaned, Abraham made a great feast. And the same day that Isaac was weaned. So that was tradition. At this time, it's usually about three or four years old and he invites everybody in and they have this huge feast, but something goes down in verses nine, 10, and 11, and it's a, it's something that happens between Ishmael and Isaac.

Now, Ishmael is about 14 years older than Isaac. On the storyline there, and it says in verse nine, Sarah saw the son of Hagar, the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. So this word is really interesting. He could have been mocking and making fun of his brother Isaac. This is Ishmael picking on Isaac.

But it had to have been something so severe that Sarah just then says to Abraham, cast out this bond woman in verse 10. Cast her and Ishmael out. They are not allowed to live with us anymore. So if you wanna read more about that, I recommend doing a deep dive into the word mocking and into what scholars have written about it.

It could be that Ishmael could have made fun of Isaac Ishmael could have actually been hitting or hurting him. So I'm just thinking. Only child. Yes. With the son. He had been the only child. Yeah. And the son of another, another woman. Like there's, there's a lot of a complexity blend. Blended family right here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up, Karyn. It is a lot of complexity and so right here we have this going on where then Sarah being the first wife and Hagar is actually her bond woman, like who's just, she answers to Sarah, so Sarah decides out, kick 'em out. They don't get to live with us anymore.

I'm not doing this. Oh, this is heavy for Abraham. And so Abraham listens to Sarah and in verse 12, God said unto Abraham, let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, which is Ishmael and because of thy bond woman and all that, Sarah has said unto the Harken unto her voice for in Isaac shall the seed be called.

So he's like, Isaac is the son that you were going to have through the Abrahamic covenant. I will take care in verse 13, and also the son of the bond woman, will I make a nation because he is thy seed, so I'm gonna take care of him too. Don't worry. Yeah, so he helps Hagar. Hagar packs up and in verse 14, they take bread and a bottle of water and he gives it to Hagar.

She puts it on her shoulder into and the child, and they send her away and she departs into the wilderness. Now, here's the story that I love. It's verses 15 through 20, and I'd love to know your insights, Aliah, as you read and prepared for this, because she then goes into the wilderness in verse 15 and she puts her child under one of the shrubs and then she walks away 'cause she knows they're gonna die in the wilderness and she walks away and begins to cry.

And the angel appears to her and says, Hey, what's going on? Why are you crying? And I love this conversation. So let's just read and Aliah, will you please read for us 17 through 20? Yes. But can pause? Yes. So how much older is. Ishmael's 14 years older than Isaac. So Isaac is three Ishmael's now. 17. Yes. So it when, okay, so it's like she put the child on her shoulder.

She did not put the child on her shoulder because he's 17 and when it's like she put him under a shrub. Yeah. Age. She didn't put him under a shrub because he's 17. Like he's a grown man. Yes, he's a grown man. But the imagery, the imagery of leaving him under the shrub and walking away, you can just see this moment with this mom like.

We're gonna die out here. I don't, yeah, prob probably because she's dealing with a teenager. Well, there's that. She probably wants to leave him under a shrub, to be perfectly honest. She's just like, can you go over there like, mommy, we need the time out. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. I used to have your dad and all these other people to deal with you, but now I gotta deal with on my own.

And it's a lot. It's a lot. Sorry. Okay. I digress because I was like, wait. Is he a child or is he like a teen? I know it does say child. In fact, let's do that in verse 14. Circle child and put 17-year-old. It changes the story. Yeah, it really does. And like the whole like, and she cast the child under a shrub or under one of the shrubs, and I'm like.

He's like a grown man. She cast him. She cast him under the shrub. She was like, go to the shrub. Yes, that's, I cast you. I cast you under the shrub. Talk back to me. Okay. What am I reading? 17 through 20? Yeah, do 17 through 20. I am a terrible reader, so. Oh, you don't have to read. Cor will read. I'll read it. Cor didn't do a, you know what, Corin didn't do a reading, so there you go.

I only read one thing and also Aliah's gonna be the one to talk about this. Good. So good call. I'll do, I'll do the reading. Okay, so Karyn, will you please read for us starting in verse 16, I want you to read 16 through 20 because we love the story in 16, about this moment between these two. Okay, great.

And she went and sat her down over against him. A good way off. Pause for a second. Anytime you see a word in italics, it's been added in. It's not in the original translation of Hebrew, so it makes, I think it makes more sense. And she went and sat her down over against a good way off. No, she's not even by him.

Right. Okay. As it were, as it were, a bowshot for, she said, let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him and lift up her voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven and said unto her, what? Athe, Hagar, fear not For God had heard the voice of the lad where he is arise, lift up the lad and hold him in nine hand.

Now I'm thinking about a 17-year-old, a arise, lift up the lad and hold him in nine hand for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water and she went and filled the bottle with water and gave the lad drink and God was with the lad and he grew and dwelt in the wilderness and became an archer.

Thank you. Okay, let's talk about those verses right there. There's so much beauty in this story because first of all, she's weeping for her and the life of her son, and there's something so significant about the angel saying God heard the voice of the lad. And also at the end of verse 17, God has heard the voice of the lad where he is.

What does that tell us about how God views all of us? Yeah. I think this is a really beautiful story 'cause I think it, it is a. And maybe I'm wrong 'cause I'm not necessarily a scriptor, but I think it's a little bit a parallel to what we're going to see with Abraham and Isaac because I can't imagine that Hagar was living in Abraham's home and didn't know about like the Abrahamic covenant and all that had been promised to Abraham.

And so for 14 years or however long, she knows that Sarah can't have kids. And so she's thinking, my boy is going to be the father of nations and he has this wonderful dad, and he has his wonderful promise from the Lord, and he has like all of these wonderful things. And so I, I imagine that yes, it's heartbreaking that she's been cast down, but she's like everything that I thought that the Lord had given me.

It's gone. Mm-hmm. Not only are we gonna die in this wilderness, right. Po possibly die in this wilderness, but every hope and dream and desire and like belief that I had in the Lord just went up and smoke. Yeah. It's all gone. And she is just like, I can't, I cannot. And she goes over and she weeps. She's weeping maybe for the life of her son, but possibly for the life of her son.

Ooh, I like that. Yep. You're right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then the Lord comes. And so we see this parallel with, you know, Abraham and Isaac. Abraham has to take Isaac and Abraham's just like, what do you mean sacrifice my son? Mm-hmm. Like, this is the son that you made all the promises about. And that's what Hagar's going like, this is the son that you made all these promises about.

And they're both like, what the heck? Yeah. You know, like, I have like put all my eggs in this basket and the angel comes down in, in both cases and he tells Hagar and he tells Abraham. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Like the Lord does not renege on his promises. You'll still get all that stuff. Wow. That is all still yours, rise up.

Mm-hmm. And I think that's so important for us to hear too, because I think there are times in our lives when we have, I know personally like I, again, like I had a geriatric pregnancy and then like. A micro preemie at 27 weeks, and I'm like, everything that I hoped for and prayed for to be a mom, to be a wife, to be like all this stuff.

I'm like, oof. Gone in an instant, like that's not happening. Any of it. I can remember that God does not. Rene on his promises. You know, Leah, that is what you shared is so beautiful, and I went to verse 19 because the great part about this story and what you've talked about is it said, and God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water, and she went and filled the bottle with water.

Now, when you read that, you're like, well, she, she could see, she could clearly see when she went into the wilderness, and it's so fascinating to me because I believe that that verse is referring back to. Genesis chapter 16. The first time that Hagar goes into the, well, the, or sorry, the first time Hagar goes into the wilderness 'cause she's been kicked out before.

Sarah kicked her out after she got pregnant. She goes into the wilderness, she's all alone and she sees this well. It's so beautiful because she's one of the few women in all of scripture to actually name or give a name to God and she names the well that she is at. And the name of the, well, if you wanna cross reference it, it's Genesis chapter 16, and it's verses 13 and 14.

And in verse 13 and 14 it says, she called the name of the Lord that spoke to her, thou God sees me for, she said, have I also here looked after him? Who seeth me. Wherefore the, well it was called Bear laha Roy. Behold it is between Kadesh, Andre, and that role will play that well, will play a role in the storyline later on.

But she names the Bo Roy, which means the well of the living one who sees me. And so isn't that so significant when there she is again in the wilderness and now it says, and God opened her eyes. The God who sees her opened her eyes, opened her eyes so that she could then see you're gonna be fine. You're like, you said, I'm not gonna take back on my promises.

I love that you taught us that, Aliah. Yeah, and I love that in that scene, that same verse where God opens her eyes and so maybe physically, but maybe spiritually. She saw a well of water. We know that the well of water is Christ. Yes. Oh, it's beautiful. Wow. This is this life. This whatever's happening right now.

This is not it. This is not the end. He opens, rise. There's more to all of this than you are seeing, and here is Christ. And she went and filled the bottle without living water. And she gave it to her son too. Yep. This is the living water. This is the water I got from the original well. When you were in my womb.

Mm-hmm. This is the water that will sustain us for our whole life. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ, and here it's in the wilderness. Verse 20, aren't we all in the wilderness? Always in the wilderness town? It's Aliah's Favorite thing to teach? Oh, Aliah, I love that you taught me that. That all the experiences that people have in scripture are either going into the wilderness or out of the wilderness where God's trying to teach them.

That's where we find God. It's where we find him in our wilderness. And it's not even wilderness moments. Life is wilderness. It's the wilderness. It's the wilderness. Wow. Thank you Aliah. Okay, so Aliah, you kind of set this up already, which is so perfect because you said this story of Hagar is very similar to the story of Isaac and Abraham.

So in the next segment we're gonna dive into that and pull out some really cool things. We'll do that next.

Segment 6

 We're gonna begin with a quote, and we actually started with me using some words from this quote. So let's go full circle. Karyn, will you please read this quote from the prophet Joseph Smith? The prophet Joseph Smith in speaking to the 12 apostles in Navu said You will have all kinds of trials to pass through and it's quite necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God.

God will feel after you and he will take hold of you and wrench your very heartstrings. And if you cannot stand it, you will not be fit for an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. Oof. Now listen, before we freak out, okay, many have spoken about this. It does not mean you're going to have to, you know, worship a or sorry, have to sacrifice a child or anything like that.

But the idea is, is I, as you're reading that, you've all experienced that. Yeah. You've all had your heartstrings wrenched. Absolutely. It's just so visceral. 'cause then he says, and if you cannot stand it, you will not be fit. And I'm like, well, mm-hmm. Anyway, so far so good. You're doing great so far. That's that window of tolerance again.

Like as we, as we, you know, get uncomfortable in the world of man, and we get comfortable in the world of God that like our window of tolerance is like bigger and bigger we are. We already have more capacity. Yeah. I'm writing that down. You're right. So we have this experience here. We talk about a window of tolerance.

Abraham is then told that he's going to sacrifice his son, Isaac, and I asked you two to look through this and just tell me what are some things that would wrench the heartstrings in this story, and just kind of tell me what you. What you found this a great fun thing to do for anybody who really wants to deep study is also to find all of the types and shadows of Jesus Christ.

'cause there's so many things in this story that are similar to our savior and his sacrifice and everything like that. But I'd just love to know what makes it so heart wrenching and it's uncomfortable, but where was the comfort? First of all, I'd like to say this. 'cause you were talking about how Ishmael was 17 years old.

It's a belief that Isaac would've been well into his late twenties, early thirties. Yeah. So it wasn't a little baby or a little boy who couldn't have a way to run or fight his dad. Right? So they go up, they're in this mountain together, and he's going to sacrifice his son. Talk to me about heart wrenching moments.

What'd you notice? This, uh, this story, I mean. Bringing me back to like, it just makes me think about our heavenly Father, you know? And like him sacrificing his only be God. Mm. And and I think about that like as a mom, like I think about that because I'd been like, no, Uhuh, no. We're not doing that. Yep. You know, I don't, I, I don't think I, I if that quote quote's true, like, I like, woo, that's, that's tough.

But you have your, your heartstrings have been wrenched in your lifetime. Yeah. I, but oof like that, like our, our, like our heavenly like to send your son. You know, in, in Hagar's case, to like be cast out with your son in Abraham's case, to be like, you have to sacrifice your son in Helen father's case of like, I'm sending my only begotten.

Like, you don't mess with kid. People's kids like I worked for DCSF. Mm-hmm. You don't mess with kids like you like. You don't mess with people's kids like that is, that is like where the rubber hits the road. That is like, Ooh. Like I, you can have all my stuff. Mm-hmm. You can have all my stuff. Yeah. You could probably even have my life, but you're like, oh, you need to give your life.

I'd be like, okay, I'm not really into this life anyways. That much. It's not going great. Yeah, yeah. But like you wanna. Do something to my kids. No, that's not gonna happen. You know? So like the amount of faith and the amount of like trust and the amount of like, security of not just in this life, but in the life to come like that is like so big.

And I don't, even if we have wrenched our hearts, which I feel like I have, like I have been in like that ugly crying on the bathroom floor, like Yes. The whole thing. And still I'm like, mm, no. Mm-hmm. Well, he hasn't asked this of us yet. Right. Like this thing I, I was thinking that walk. But he does, he does.

Like, he, he's like. Your kids are gonna grow up and they are gonna leave. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's the idea of like letting go of control. That's sometimes I wonder if that's the, if that's our biggest, that's a great message. If that's our biggest sacrifice, like the loss of something that, and I think this goes like, you know, lot's wife and Sodom and Gamora that like the loss.

The grief and the loss of something that you hold dear. The grief and the loss of like what you thought your life was going to be like, what your future was going to be, your posterity, like, all of those things like that is powerful. I think. Um, Karine, you just hit on the head like, I have never considered that.

This story is a story about control and trusting God. That, that's really the heart of it. Sarah had to absolutely let go of control and just tr like, that must have been a scary moment. But everybody does. Everyone had to, right? Everyone had to. And all of us do in our life. That truly is what it means to be comfortable in the celestial.

Aliyah is letting go of your control. Well, and isn't control. I mean it's God's will. It's aligning your will to God's. And I feel like in the last few years of my life, everything that, that I have. Been struggling with or trying to figure out is about the reality that I, that in order for me to be fully aligned to God's will, to have full access to his power means that on some level I have to willingly offer my will on the altar, and it's really hard.

I mean, and yeah. And none of us wanna be like, like patsies in a, in a cult, right? Right. Sure. Like, I, I wanna have free will, I wanna have agency and I want to use that agency for the betterment of things. And there are times when you feel like, oh, well, if I'm aligning my will to God, am I giving up? Um, anyway, these are some things that I think about, but the, the, this is, this is just a regular Tuesday for me.

You know, just like love it. Wow. God. It well and control and cult. Um, but, but the other thought that I had too is think about that walk. It says that for three days they walked and then they looked up and saw the place and like he knew where he needed to go. And I'm thinking, because Abraham didn't tell Isaac it sounds like that any of this was going down.

He's like, okay, we're in the sacrifice place, dad. Where's uh, where's that lamb that we're, we were supposed to do the sacrifice for? Mm-hmm. And Abraham's like, Hmm. So God's gonna provide a sacrifice. And I was just thinking about what it must have been like for Abraham to carry this, to carry the knowledge of this for three days, um, alone.

Yeah. And God asks us to do that too. He's carrying that alone and then he is like, and how am I gonna go home to Sarah? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Then how much do we love this? Because in verse 16, the way it all ends, after the ram comes out of the thicket and, and, uh, Isaac's life is saved. I think this is, so, this, it's what you two have just taught us.

16 says, and the Lord speaking by myself. Have I sworn, sayeth the Lord because the has done this thing? Highlight that. 'cause immediately when you read this thing, you think sacrificing Isaac. But it's not because you've done this thing and have not withheld thy son. Thine only son. So he's saying because you've done this thing and offered your son as a sacrifice.

So what could this thing be? And it's what you've talked about Corin that in bless, he says, in blessing, I will bless thee. In multiplying he gives him all the blessings. In 18 and in nice siege shall all the nations of the earth be blessed? Because thou has obeyed my voice. That's the this thing. Because you obeyed my voice.

You let go of control and you also offered your son as a sacrifice. That, that this thing is the heart wrenching thing. It's obeying the voice of the Lord. It's doing what he's asked to us to do. And that sometimes is the hardest thing. 'cause it's individual, it's for each one of us. We each have our own personal Abraham Isaac mo moments and, and that is where we're letting God's will take over.

And that I love how you've taught us Aliah, that letting control and, and all this idea, this window where the Lord's proving us, where he's refining us between celestial and world. So that was, that was a good discussion today. Wow. You two. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Kind of glad I came fully unprepared.

Me too. Okay. Gather your thoughts. What notes did you write down? Tell me what your eternal truth was that you learned your takeaway. I think the thing that I will take with me is just this kind of blasting that Corin was talking about. I don't know that it's my eternal truth, but it's my, it's like my nugget of like inquiry where I'm like, oh, I wanna think about that more about control and, and giving my will.

And like, it's not like a new concept, but it's something that I probably need to like re-up and like, how am I giving over my will? Like how am I laying my will on, on the altar? On the sacrificial altar, my son, no, but my will. Yes. How? How can I do that In, in small and in large ways more frequently and more abundantly and with more like faith.

I like that. Yep. I'm gonna take it back to the beginning where I said, you know, I'm, I'm in this phase of life where I'm sort of wondering, is there still more for me to do? Still more for me to be, and what Aliah said about getting comfortable in the Lord's world instead of man's world as we talked about Sodom and Gamora, I, I have a lot of work to do there still, you know, I have a lot of, a lot of opportunity.

Uh, because I'm a woman who takes her covenant seriously, because I care about the promises that I've made. Part of what has to happen in the next, you know what? 40 years. I hope I don't live 40 years. That feels so tiring. Um, but the next, the next whatever amount of years I live is this idea of no longer being fully comfortable in mm-hmm.

The world of man. And I think maybe that's the key. Like maybe when you get there, you get to go home. Yeah, maybe when you're no longer comfortable in this world, you get to go home. But I'm gonna be thinking about that. I, I think there's something in comfort and discomfort and, um, man's world versus God's world and being more comfortable maybe in the temple on a Saturday morning than TJ Max.

I like that a lot. That was mine when you taught us about he will provide comfort in the discomfort. Mostly I loved, actually, no, I'm changing it. Here's the thing that I loved, Corin, is when you said that, that it's pulling focus from the truth about Sodom and Gaura, the way we've traditionally taught it when we read Equi, it really is, it's pulling the truth from we all are Sodom and gaura.

We, all of us are living in that village, that city that. Whatever. And you're right, it did pull focus from the truth. And so it's, it's a hard reflection to look at. Yeah. And it's really easy to vilify other people. Yes. If you can, if you can pin it on one sin or Yep. Put it in one space, like then all of a sudden there other, and you're, you're safe and something so egregious, but you're like, oh, I could never do that.

Yes. It's an othering story of epic proportions, so thank you. Instead of a. Instead of, like you said, we are all the, we are all in that space. I love it. And then Aliah. I love when you had us go to the word tempt and temper. Mm-hmm. And refine us. Like everything we've talked about, refined every person, and can refine us.

If we take every, the truth that you two taught us today can absolutely refine us by being uncomfortable and being comfortable in the Les Kingdom, God's world versus man's world. And the space. It, it was just such a great discussion today about refinement. So. Thank you. Thank you to both of all. Thank you.

I love you guys. I'm so glad we're friends. I, me too. We should, we should take this offline sometime. We should have other discussions altogether. That would be fun. Well, and you know what I love about Sunday, on Monday, Tammy, is I don't realize how much I need to sit with women. Um, who are also all in, yeah.

Digging through this and figuring it out together so that we can go back stronger. And there's power in this kind of scripture diving with other women, right? Oh, there is, you're right. You were wise. You knew the spirit spoke to you. No, you were wise. No, you were wise, Tammy. You were. You were wise. No, you were wise.

Listen, I brought the idea, but you're the one who jumped on it. And here we are. Yeah, seven years later. Look at the good you've done because of that. Cor it because you listened to the spirit. So thank you. Good things happen when you follow God's will. Right? I will forever be grateful for you, Karyn. It makes me emotion, but I love you.

You've changed my life, so Aw, thanks. Thanks for being the kind of person I can come to. I a mutual gratitude. I know. I'm grateful for both of you too. I love Corin. I, Aliah Aliah's changed this podcast so much like giving us not true truth therapy truths that people need to hear. Bye. Love you guys.

Bye bye. What eternal truth did you learn? What did you guys learn? What's standing out to you from this discussion? Because it was so good. Gosh, I love those friends. Okay, join us on Facebook or follow us on Instagram to share what you have learned. And then throughout the week we're gonna post a question from this.

Discussion, and here's what I wanna know is how do you practice the law of hospitality? What do you do when people come over? Comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday and go there anyway, because it's where we're gonna have links to the references and a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, and it's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our incredible. Just perfect study group participants. Were Aliah Hall and Karyn Lay, and you can find more information about these friends at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday.

Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week and please remember that you are God's favorite.